Episode: 93
These 4 Words Will Silence Your Self-Doubt: A Life-Changing Conversation
with Kendall Robbins
Imposter Syndrome is actually a GOOD thing.
"Imposter Syndrome" is when you think that everyone else is smarter, more successful, and has more to contribute than you do. It’s so common that the Harvard Business Review found that even 70% of the world’s top executives have struggled with it.
Listen and learn how to be more courageous and confident in those moments that really matter.
Listen on:
It's not everybody else's job to know what you do.
Mel Robbins
Featured Clips
Transcript
Mel Robbins (00:03):
First of all, every human being struggles with moments of imposter syndrome where you enter a situation and in your own mind, you start doubting yourself and you start feeling worried that people are going to find out that you have no idea what you're talking about. The situation that you found yourself in on Friday morning just a few days ago is not only so relatable, and I know that you have a lot of value to share. Why don't we unpack this moment where your imposter syndrome got triggered. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Today we are going to get right into it. We're going to talk about imposter syndrome. And the reason why I wanted to talk about this is because our daughter, Kendall, who is 23 years old, just had a situation this weekend that triggered imposter syndrome, and I thought, why don't we unpack this moment where your imposter syndrome got triggered, and then more importantly, the incredible things that you shared with me that helped you turn it around. So ladies and gentlemen, everybody who's listening, Kendall Robbins.
Kendall Robbins (01:13):
Hey everybody.
Mel Robbins (01:15):
All right, so tell us what happened.
Kendall Robbins (01:17):
Okay, so this past weekend I had my first experience as an artist in the real artist world is what I'm going to call
Mel Robbins (01:30):
It. What does artist mean?
Kendall Robbins (01:31):
I am pursuing a career as a professional recording and touring artist, and I'm a singer songwriter. I've started to write my own music. I'm moving out to LA in a few weeks time, and this past weekend was my first experience surrounded by people that are really successful artists that are doing the thing that I want to do. And as somebody that's been in school for the past four years, I've had very few experiences like this. And so this past weekend was my first few days fully existing in that world without the label of a student on my back. I didn't have that sort of shadow to hide in anymore. I was feeling embarrassed, I was feeling awkward. I was feeling like an imposter. I don't belong because I don't have music out and I don't have fans, and I don't have a social media following, but I was just me.
Mel Robbins (02:29):
Okay, well, let's just back the truck up a minute. So let's just set the table. First of all, every human being struggles with moments of imposter syndrome. I'm looking at the research right here, everybody. I've got my research psychologists call this fear of being found out, imposter syndrome. It was coined in the 1970s by two female researchers. In fact, Harvard Business Review Kendall says that executives worldwide agree that their number one fear is being found to be incompetent.
Kendall Robbins (03:01):
Oh, okay.
Mel Robbins (03:03):
So this is a very normal thing for everybody to experience, and it is what is called intellectual self-doubt, where you enter a situation or you enter a room or you think about doing something, and in your own mind, you start doubting yourself. You start doubting whether or not you're able to do something. You start doubting whether or not you deserve to be in a certain place, and you start feeling worried that people are going to find out that you have no idea what you're talking about. And one thing that I will say from the get go is the reason why I wanted to have you on is because the situation that you found yourself in on Friday morning just a few days ago is not only so relatable, but I was pretty impressed by how you coached yourself through it and turned it around and had one of the coolest, most affirming weekends of your life. And I know that you have a lot of value to share. So with that, are you willing to go there?
Kendall Robbins (04:12):
Yes, yes, I'm willing.
Mel Robbins (04:13):
Okay, great. So just put us at the scene. What was happening Friday
Kendall Robbins (04:18):
Morning? So this past weekend, I was lucky enough to go to a music festival and I had an artist pass, which means that I got to watch all of the musicians and artists that were performing at the festival perform from backstage in this separate area that the people with the artist Pass can hang out in. And I didn't really know what that meant until I got there. So how did you think of that? I honestly had no idea what Artist Pass meant. I was just like, sweet, okay, I get to cut the line. That's really awesome. I feel really grateful. And then I walk backstage and I'm surrounded by all of these very established musicians and artists and performers and people that I've been listening to for the past however many years.
Mel Robbins (04:58):
What was that like?
Kendall Robbins (04:59):
I mean, it was really scary at first because I had no idea that I was going to be within arms reach of all these people that I've looked up to for the past few years. And being there as somebody that has just gotten out of school does not have anything released is just in the woods right now, figuring out who I want to be, what I want to be, what I want to write, what I want to release. I basically don't exist right now in the world that I'm stepping into. And so stepping into this festival as somebody that doesn't really exist online or in this industry yet, but stepping into it physically and being surrounded by all these people was
Kendall Robbins (05:40):
Just incredibly daunting, and I felt really scared and awkward, and I stood alone a lot of the time.
Mel Robbins (05:49):
So can you put us at the moment when you arrive at the festival, you get this that is a special thing around your wrist that gives you all access to go anywhere, and you walk into almost like the tent that serves as the green
Kendall Robbins (06:07):
Room? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I have a family friend that works at this festival and has been going to this festival for a while. So he was the one that was actually able to get me the artist pass. I had honestly no idea what it really meant. I knew that there were some VIP features of this pass, but I did not know what my days were going to look like. I didn't know what the schedule was like. And so basically we get to the festival, we cut the line, we go to this special tent where I get this wristband, and then we walk into the festival immediately. We're in this crowd, I'm seeing all the food tents, smelling all the smells, seeing all the people, and then we go behind the stage into this roped off section. Meanwhile, the family friend that I'm with is sort of showing me the ropes, but of course he's very busy and has things to be doing at the festival. We go behind this rope and there's this hangout area in the roped off section under a tent, and he said, this is sort of the hangout spot. Okay, I got to go now. And I was like, okay. So I'm 30 minutes in, I'm wearing a long skirt and it's 85 degrees outside, which automatically I'm a rookie.
Kendall Robbins (09:21):
I don't have anything out to, I feel imposter syndrome talking about the fact that I don't have music out yet on Spotify. I hate talking about it. It makes me want to throw up everywhere. It makes me so embarrassed. Why? Because everybody else seems to have it figured out and have shit going on. I know that when I am not in an anxious state of mind, I remind myself I'm on my own timeline. I don't really want you to include that. No, but I think that's
Mel Robbins (09:50):
Important because it ties into what I was going to share with you. Please say that. Okay.
Kendall Robbins (09:57):
I feel very embarrassed to share with my mom's millions and millions and millions of followers and listeners that I don't have anything out on any streaming platform yet. I don't have a social media presence. I don't have fans, I don't have anything, and I'm talking about being an imposter on this podcast when I've never been on tour. I don't have an album out. I don't have followers, I don't have fans. I feel like an imposter for being an imposter. I have imposter syndrome about doing this episode because I feel like I haven't been an imposter for long enough to talk about being an imposter. What does that even mean? This is just such a classic example of the syndrome, which is I feel as though I haven't, this feeling is so new to me that it feels like I don't even have enough qualification to talk about it.
Mel Robbins (10:49):
Oh, do
Kendall Robbins (10:50):
You know what I mean?
Mel Robbins (10:51):
You don't feel like you're an authority on how to deal with imposter syndrome because you struggle
Kendall Robbins (10:56):
With it. Yeah. I feel like I don't feel like I had my first real experience this past weekend dealing with imposter syndrome, and I definitely learned from it. I definitely gained a lot of insight from the experience, but it was my first experience and I feel unqualified to talk about it because it was my first experience.
Mel Robbins (11:16):
You're not really selling the episode.
Kendall Robbins (11:18):
I'm trying to make a joke. I do feel like an imposter right now. I feel like all of the other people in my industry have experienced this so much more than I have, and now I'm getting on here and getting on my soapbox and trying to tell everybody what it's like. You're not
Mel Robbins (11:32):
Getting on your soapbox, but this is why this conversation is so important. You're in it.
(11:38):
Yeah. Everybody listening feels like an imposter in some area of their life. Everybody can relate to that feeling like, here I am, I physically next to the people who are what I want to do, and it's so close I can reach out and touch it. These people I've admired, I've streamed, I've watched them at award shows, they're standing right there. They're doing what I want to do. And the only thing that's keeping me from doing what I want to do is this feeling of not being ready or this feeling that I'm not going to have what it takes, this feeling of being nobody, this feeling like somebody's already done it, this feeling like, is there room for me? And because you're in it, you are in a much better place to validate where everybody is. Ken, somebody's already figured this shit out. Coming in and being like, well, when you feel like an imposter, do this, this, and this.
(12:38):
It's easy when you're through it, you're right up against it right now. That tension that you feel is important. I remember, God, this must've been like nine years ago when I first got into the speaking business, Ken, I hadn't been paid to give a speech and I get invited as I'm just starting out to go to this event in California and speak on a panel.
Mel Robbins (13:08):
I don't even know what the hell I was speaking about. All I know is there was this opening reception, sort of like what you're describing, an opening reception for the people who had been invited to speak at this thing. And so I walk into this room, I have the lanyard around my neck. You've got the little artist thing around your wrist, and I walk in and I am like, oh my God. There's Christie Turlington, the supermodel. Oh my gosh, there's Gretchen Rubin, the author. Oh my gosh, there's this person. There's that person there. And I see all these famous people, all of whom are speaking. I felt like I had no business being there.
Kendall Robbins (13:47):
Same.
Mel Robbins (13:48):
And all these people were talking, and they all seemed to know each other. And there were a couple instances where I'm like, okay, here we go. And I would walk up to a group of people and I'd introduce myself, and they'd all turn, oh, what do you do? And I didn't even know how to answer it. I didn't have a book. I had given one TEDx Talk and nobody had heard of it yet. I didn't have anything. I felt like I had nothing.
(14:18):
I didn't even know why I was there. And after I would introduce myself and people were like, oh, did you write a book? And I'm like, no, I am just kind of speaking about motivation. Oh, okay. And then they'd turn and something flipped in me because I felt like such a fraud being there, but something deeper was going on and this is what was going on. I realized in that moment that I wanted to do something that mattered. I wanted do the work or write a book or do something that when I walked into a room, it was like, oh, oh, you're the woman who wrote the five second rule. I freaking love that thing. And that discomfort that I felt in that moment, it sucked in the moment. I went back to my hotel room. I didn't go to the dinner, I cried. I stayed up all night.
Mel Robbins (15:17):
What am I going to do? But there was something deep inside of me that was like, you don't want to feel this way. You have something that you want to contribute. And feeling like you're on the outside of something that you want to be a part of is a normal experience. See, I think imposter syndrome, that discomfort that you were feeling that first few hours at the artist tent, at this music festival, I think that is your dreams going. We got work to do. Oh shit, you want to be in here. You want to be doing this. You got stuff to contribute. You got to wake up. You got to start putting yourself out there. This is a step on the path that's so important because you only feel imposter syndrome in situations that you care about because you care about whether or not you've got something to show for what you're doing.
Kendall Robbins (16:14):
Well, like I said, I was alone and all of these very established famous artists are walking by me, and it's not like I can be introducing myself to people and saying, oh, go check me out on Spotify. Go check me out on Instagram. It's like, hi, I'm Kendall. And then I disappear to the point where someone literally came up to me and was like, are you okay? Definitely knew I looked like I was not supposed to be there. That's how the imposter syndrome had basically creeped onto my face. I was so uncomfortable and so just embarrassed and just felt like, why am I here? I need to leave. I don't want to be here. I want to go home. I don't want to tell people I'm an artist. I don't feel like that at all right now. I don't feel like anyone's going to give a shit about me, including myself. But yeah, it was horrible. It was really horrible. But I mean, what
Mel Robbins (17:15):
Changed though, because this is where I want to go to. We can all, well hold that thought. I want to hear a quick word from our sponsors, and when we come back, we're going to go right to the moment where you flip the switch because you did and you made it one of the best weekends of your life, and you made incredible friendships and you came home a different person after those three days. And we're going to talk about what changed when we come back. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins, and I'm sitting here with our daughter Kendall, who's 23, and she is pursuing her dream and goal of being a touring, and we're talking about imposter syndrome. Ken, I want to go back to the moment where you've been standing in the artist tent at this music festival for the first five hours. On day one, somebody has come up to you and said, are you okay? Because you look so out of place and you're alone drinking a white claw surrounded by all these touring musicians that you admire. What did you do to turn this around because you turned it around, dude.
Kendall Robbins (18:28):
Well, it definitely was not immediate. It continued for about a few more hours. Just tell me about it in that tent. God, and I'm slightly tipsy now because I've had two white claws alone, and I'm sitting alone. Let me just tell you, every single person in that tent was with another person, if not three or four. So you can tell that I probably look so weird sitting alone, and I was just kind of thinking, I'm here. I get to be around some of my biggest inspirations. I get to go backstage and be in arm's length from them while they absolutely murder it on stage. I get free food. I get free white glos. Why the fuck wouldn't I enjoy this? I'm just going to enjoy this because no, I'm not performing. Although I wish that I was. No, I don't have a Grammy, although that is a dream of mine. No, I don't have music out on Spotify that I can tell my favorite artists that are here to listen to. No, I can't do any of that. But you know what? I can be grateful that I'm here and I can lean into that gratitude and just have fun. So once I exhaled and I was like, okay, I'm going to enjoy myself. This has been God awful up until this point. So's
Mel Robbins (19:59):
Grateful for the God awful.
Kendall Robbins (20:01):
I mean, why not have fun? I'm either going to continue to torture myself in front of my favorite artists, or I'm going to have fun and put a smile on my face. So I said, you know what? I'm really happy that I'm here. Let's start to have some fun. And as I'm sitting alone drinking a water this time, I'm thinking about all of this advice that I've gotten over the past years and what are other things I can lean into while being here to try and find some sense of belonging in a place that I feel I don't belong? And I think back to this piece of advice that one of my amazing mentors, Sean Holt, who is the vice dean at the Thornton School of Music at USC gave to me and he said, because you're a beginner Kendall, these rooms that you're going to start to walk into and these experiences that you're going to start to have, you can't be walking in there with some massive ego and some big head on your shoulders thinking, I know best I know this. That's not the way to go about this, is to be like, I know everything.
(20:59):
But instead, you should walk into those rooms with a learner's posture and lean into the gratitude that you have for learning all that you're going to learn. And he said, every room that you walk into enter with a learner's posture, but also know in the back of your mind that you have something to give to the people in that room that they don't have and that you might not even know you have to give, but there's a reason you're in that room
Kendall Robbins (12:23):
And you're going to give them something that they don't know they needed, just like they're going to give you something you don't know. You needed mic drop. Thank you, Sean.
Mel Robbins (21:32):
Can I just stop there? Yeah. I wish I had known that when I walked into the room in Los Angeles and I walked in there and I felt like, oh my God, these are people I admire, or they're famous or they're known or they're doing cool things. I'm not doing anything. I'm a nobody. I don't have anything yet. And yet, that's the important part. Yet, it's not that you can't do it, it's that you haven't done it yet. But if I had been able to flip to a state of, I'm just so grateful to be here and I am going to introduce myself to everybody, and I am going to learn as much as I can and I'm going to soak things up and I'm going to be like a beginner, if you were my shoes, what's one piece of advice you would have just soak it all up and it would've flipped off the
Mel Robbins (22:30):
Insecurity that imposter syndrome can overwhelm you with. Because when you get up in your head and you start going, I don't belong, and No, no, no, and you become very intellectual about it, you isolate yourself and you cut yourself off from both what you can get and gain from the room and what you can give. Because every time you talk to somebody who is beginning at something you're really good at, their enthusiasm and passion always rubs off on you.
Kendall Robbins (22:57):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (22:57):
And so it's true.
Kendall Robbins (22:58):
I was told that. What do you mean? I mean, so a lot of things happened, but I just started to relax into it and I started to meet people. How did you meet them? Well, the family connection that I had who invited me to the festival had a few friends there, and he introduced me to those people who I really hit it off with. And we started talking, and it was the first time that I was talking to people, but it was the first time that I was able to just own where I was at and say, I'm an artist. I'm a beginner. I don't have anything out. I'm just in my creative curative space right now. I'm working on some stuff. I'm really excited about it. I'm not trying to rush the process. And I think saying that and just speaking that out into the universe was sort of a weight lifted, but just being able to meet people and tell them that I'm a beginner and that I'm so excited and that I'm so grateful to learn from them and to be just surrounded by the greats and all these people that I've just been so inspired by for the past few years was enough.
Mel Robbins (24:00):
What happened?
Kendall Robbins (24:01):
Well, they were so nice, and they welcomed me in and they took me under their wing and introduced me to a bunch of cool people, and nobody was quick to judge me that I was a beginner. And I had a few people even say, it's so inspiring being around you because we now have to make ends meet by doing this, and we pay our bills doing this. But it's so cool to be surrounded by someone that's just so fresh off and ready to go, and it
(24:28):
Reminds us all of the reason that we started, which is because we fell in love with it, and we can feel that love coming off of you. And it just reminds us of why we do this, because some days it gets long and it gets hard and we don't want to do it. And it's hard to be so in love with the thing that also pays your bills, but it's so nice being around you and being around somebody that's just so excited about it. And that was just so validating because they weren't complimenting my original music, but they were just complimenting my spirit and my ambition and my drive and my passion, which is what I needed to be complimented on at this phase in my journey. It's
Mel Robbins (25:06):
Actually more important than being complimented on the
Kendall Robbins (25:08):
Music always. And so I made a bunch of friends and
Kendall Robbins (25:13):
I even got the chance to perform at this late night performance. And after I performed, I had a bunch of people ask if they wanted to collaborate with me and write music with me. And it was just really awesome. I think once I sort of owned where I'm at, which is a beginner, I'm not an imposter as a beginner because that's what I am. Wait,
Mel Robbins (25:41):
Say that again.
Kendall Robbins (25:45):
I'm not an imposter if I'm a beginner because that's what I am.
Mel Robbins (25:50):
Oh my God, Kendall, that's genius.
Kendall Robbins (25:59):
Well, I think you can diffuse the imposter syndrome if you just accept where you're at. I felt like an imposter around all of my favorite artists because of what they have accomplished that I haven't yet. But if I just give myself the space to meet me where I'm at, then the imposter syndrome sort of disappears. Does that make
Mel Robbins (26:25):
Sense? It not only makes sense, but I have so many ahas and light bulbs blinking. It's like a galaxy in my mind.
Kendall Robbins (26:38):
Okay.
Mel Robbins (26:38):
You're not an imposter. You're just a beginner.
Kendall Robbins (26:41):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (26:42):
And what I also love about those moments where you're new to something you're learning, you're in a new job. If you start at a new school, you feel like an imposter that everybody always has friends when you move to a new neighborhood, when you try something new. I think so many of us are so terrified of feeling like a beginner or feeling mediocre at something, that we don't give ourselves permission to just be a beginner because we think people are going to like us more if we have it all figured out. And the truth is, nobody has it figured it out, of course, completely.
Mel Robbins (27:17):
The people that you admire are tired of touring. And so the passion and the beginner's mindset infuses them with something. And I have so many takeaways from this conversation, Ken. I knew that I would, number one, the next time that you're in a situation where you feel like you don't belong or you get up in your head, recognize it and flip it to gratitude. Be grateful that you are here at this new school or you're here in this new job, or you are here in a room with people that you admire, adopt that learner's beginner's mindset and just absorb as much as you can. Another thing that you said that I think is brilliant is that as soon as you gave yourself grace to just be where you are and to say it out loud,
Kendall Robbins (28:08):
Well, I have something to say about that.
Mel Robbins (28:10):
Okay.
Kendall Robbins (28:10):
Another way to think about it, and this is another piece of advice that I got from Sean Holt, is that you become one of the most powerful people in the room when
Mel Robbins (31:04):
Of course. And you know what I also find interesting is that you call yourself a beginner, but you just graduated from the top program in the world for pop music at USC Thornton studying with Grammy award-winning artists and collaborating with plenty of musicians. You're not exactly a beginner, but you're a beginner on the journey of the touring artist world. And so I think that there are levels to that beginner mindset because when I started this podcast, I was not a beginner when it comes to audio. I hosted a radio show in 2008 to two for years and won awards for it. And then I've published all these audio books with Audible, but I felt like a beginner that had never done a podcast when I started this. No,
Kendall Robbins (32:06):
I'm not a beginner singer. I am a beginner songwriter. I am a beginner in an artist tent. I am a beginner talking to my favorite artists. I am a beginner waiting in line behind my favorite musicians. There are so many things that I have. I mean, it all ties back into the there's something to learn and there's something to give.
(32:30):
It's push and pull, but it's mostly balance. I think if you're only on, I have something to give, you're going to get too caught up in your own world, and you're not going to be able to feel into the gratitude and the service, and you're going to be too obsessed with yourself. What do I give? I get, what do I give? What do I give? It's all about me. What I found, it's all about me, and it's not. And then if you get into the what do I have to learn? What do I have to learn? What do I have to learn? You're just going to dumb yourself down so much that you don't even give yourself the opportunity to express what you do have to give. And so it's practice, and I definitely have not figured it out, although it sort of maybe on this podcast sounds like I have, but the balance thing, it's an everyday practice. But
Mel Robbins (33:10):
Well, one thing I want to point out based on what you told me is that the first thing that you gave is your sense of humor. It had nothing to do with music. And so you started cracking jokes with somebody that you were introduced to that is highly regarded, and it was your humor and your passion and your beginner mindset that broke the ice and had you make this incredible connection with somebody who will probably be part of your career moving forward.
Kendall Robbins (33:41):
Yeah, and I think another way that I think about imposter syndrome is I think about the fact that I'm a nobody. That's kind of what I was feeling. I was literally texting my friends who I graduated with at USC, who are
Kendall Robbins (33:55):
Incredible musicians and have music out and are just my best friends. And I was texting them being like, I'm a nobody. Why am I here? So-and-so just walked by. I'm drinking alone. Help me. And they were all responding like, you're Kendall, effing Robbins. You're not a nobody. Go be you. Go have fun. You're supposed to be there. Love you guys. You know who you are. And I think in saying, I'm a nobody, the only reason that I was thinking everybody around me were somebodies is because of the accolades and the accomplishments that they've achieved
Mel Robbins (34:30):
And the followings
Kendall Robbins (34:30):
And the fans and the followings, but the fans, at least in my opinion, the fans, the awards, the accolades, the attention that all of the people I was surrounded by have are not who they are. But as I was thinking about this, I was going, so and so is not her. Grammy, she's her. I don't have music out right now, but I'm still me and I can still be me. And at the end of the day, we're all kind of nobodies because people think we're somebodies when we have stuff to show. But without that stuff, we're just us, which is, I mean, the beauty of life, we're all
Mel Robbins (35:13):
Just us. What's interesting is that you just said people think you're somebody because you have something to show for yourself, but we're all just nobodies because there is something that is special about you that nobody else has.
Kendall Robbins (35:31):
Yeah, that's a great way of thinking about it. And I think the word nobody is, it's so negative and people think, oh, I'm invisible, but we're all kind of just doing our own thing because I don't have music out because I don't have these awards. I don't have this following that everyone around me has. I'm like, what All I can do is just be me. And that's kind of all that I'm going to do throughout my career. And so I'm just going to do that right now because I hope that even when I do have those accolades and when I do have those fans, I can still be me, and I'm sure that all these people around me at some capacity are just trying to be themselves too. So in doing that, I think I learned, and I hope you guys can learn that in just being me, the things that I started to give had nothing to do with my music and nothing to do with my voice and nothing to do with anything that I thought it would have to do with the things that you are going to give in these rooms that you walk into where you feel like an imposter will likely have nothing to do with that actual career or the skillset you mastered in college to get the job that you got.
(36:35):
It's probably going to have to do with your humanity or some experience you had that's relatable, or your sense of humor or the fact that you're passionate about sowing. I don't know who knows what it's going to be, but I think what I learned this past weekend is that people felt a magnetic pull towards me because of my humor and because of my inappropriate jokes that really, I guess brought some laughter to the rooms that I was walking into. And in giving people comedic relief and giving people laughter, that's what they learned from me. And in turn, I started learning from them.
Resources
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- Harvard Business Review: You’re not powerless in the face of imposter syndrome.
- National Library of Medicine: The imposter phenomenon.
- Harvard Business Review: How to manage change.
- National Library of Medicine: How to get out of intellectual self-doubt.
- American Psychological Association: Feel like a fraud?
- UC, Davis: High self-esteem has long-term impact.
- Time Magazine: How to be more confident, 5 research-backed methods.
- The New York Times: The secret to unshakeable confidence.
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