It’s Not You: The Real Reason Adult Friendship Is So Hard & 3 Ways to Make It Easier

Mel Robbins (00:00:05):

Really? Why?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:00:07):

I think it's because

 

Mel Robbins (00:00:08):

You found that there's this framework. There are three affinities you call them, that are necessary parts of female friendship.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:00:018):

I saw the same three things keep popping up in terms of what women highly prioritize in their friendships and what makes them close. And so those three things are, I think this conversation is important for the person who finds themselves about to grow cold or cynical to friendship itself. Because when we talk about from an aerial view, needing more trust in community from a larger perspective, it starts right here.

 

Mel Robbins (00:00:49):

Hey, it's your friend, Mel, I'm so fired up that you're here. Welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I'm so excited about our topic. I'm so excited that you're here with me. It's always an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're a new listener, I want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I'm so glad you're here, and because you made the time to listen to this particular episode, here's what I know about you. First of all, you probably don't have a lot of time, but the fact that you found time and made it to listen to this means you value yourself and you also want friendship. And I got to tell you something, if you're here listening to this because someone forwarded this to you, you know what that tells me? It tells me that you have people in your life that really love and care about you and the person who sent this to you, they did it because they want to be closer to you and they want you to feel empowered in your life.

 

(00:01:41):

And you know what? That is exactly what a good friend does. And this is a really important area of my life, friendship and friendship with other women that I've gotten wrong for a very long time. I've also gotten it wrong as a mom, as I was trying to counsel my daughters through those really traumatic things that can happen in middle school and high school. And then I read a copy of this book that I'm holding right now called Fighting for Friendship, the Science and Art of Conflict, and Connecting in Women's Relationships. And I learned so much. This is the essential guidelines to creating and keeping female friendship alive in your life. So I called up the author. Her name is Danielle Byer Jackson. She's bestselling author. She's also the director of the Women's Relational Health Institute. She lectures around the United States on the topic of friendship, and she is here today to take away the mystery and the drama and breakdown why female friendship matters.

 

(00:02:42):

She's going to share the unspoken challenges of female friendships, the differences between male and female, friendship, how to navigate conflict and challenges. And even when you need to let go of the friendship that no longer serves you, and also you're going to learn how do you bring up something that bothers you? How do you deal with a friend who's controlling, possessive, jealous? How do you deal with yourself when you start being like that in friendship? I know I've been that way. All of these experiences are normal. And the good news is it's not. You got to understand the research. And once you do, you're going to also realize there's something you can do because you deserve amazing female friends. And today you're going to get the roadmap to creating them. So please help me welcome Danielle Byer Jackson to the Mel Robbins podcast. So Danielle, I am so excited you're here.

 

(00:03:33):

Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Thank you for having me. This is awesome. Oh, I have so much to learn from you. I feel like I'm about to get a therapy session that is going to help me understand my past and struggling with female friendship and as a mom watching my daughters struggle with female friendship. And so I am just thrilled you're here. I'm thrilled to dig into your amazing book, fighting for Our Friendships, the Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships. Here's where I want to start. I'd love to have you talk to the person who is with us right now. They've either hit plan this episode and taking us on a walk, or you and I are in their car or at work or in their kitchen as they've got their earbuds in. And I'd love for you to tell the person listening what might change about their life and their friendships and how they feel about themselves. If they take everything that you're about to share with us to heart and they apply it to their life,

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:04:38):

I think that by the time they're done listening or watching it, they feel instantly more confident, less alone about any secret private struggles that they're experiencing in their friendships. And I'm hoping that it increases their level of optimism about all that is available to them in friendship. That's what I'm really hoping for by the time that we're done with this conversation.

 

Mel Robbins (00:05:04):

One of the things that I felt after reading your book is I felt like I understood myself better. I felt validated and seen in terms of the struggles that I had making friends when I was in middle school and high school and college keeping friends. And so I'm just super excited about this conversation because especially talking about that tension and frustration, that thing that we can't quite put our finger on, why are girls mean? Why is it hard to connect with women? Why do friends come in and out of my life? Do I need to have a breakup? What is up with the tension? Why do I miss people that I'm no longer friends with? I can't wait to unpack this. And where I want to start is, you have such an interesting career. How on earth did you find yourself in a career where you're writing books, researching and teaching about female friendship?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:06:00):

First let me say that becoming a friendship coach was certainly not on my vision board when I was 10. Okay. Definitely something I fell into. I actually started as a high school English teacher, and so I had 10th and 12th graders who I was teaching. And I noticed that between classes and after school, the number one thing the girls wanted to talk to me about was friendship stuff. So I didn't realize that at the time. I was kind of unofficially coaching them through their weird, awkward friendship drama. And so the classroom was kind of the first place where I saw how issues of connection and belonging directly impact everything else, their attendance, because you're not even coming to school if you don't feel like you belong somewhere.

 

(00:06:40):

Their confidence, their academic performance, their mood all related back to whether or not they felt like they had people at school. And so I did that for about six years and became the academic chair. And then I left and I got into the world of public relations. And I always joke that I made the foolish mistake of thinking I'm leaving that teenage drama behind because I'm working with adult women. And it wasn't long before I realized that despite the fact that these women were charismatic, high achieving extroverts, they too were secretly dealing with friendship stuff. And so I just thought, wow, at every stage of womanhood, we're trying to figure out how do I better relate to the women around me? It's not an age thing. It feels like the great equalizer. It doesn't matter your background or generation. And so for the past seven years, I've been leveraging my background in education to study what the research has to say about women's cooperation, communication, and conflict.

Mel Robbins (00:08:12):

Wait, what? Dyadic, what is that word? You're an English teacher, so I'm going to have to be like, okay, wait, what?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:08:17):

So like a Dia, DYAD diet. So we tend to couple off, and that accounts for that depth we experience right in this private intimate vault, the two of us. Whereas men tend to congregate in larger groups, they tend to collect a bunch of casual friendships. And when you're in a big group, it affords you a certain level of anonymity. When I've got all the guys in the room, women also in our conversations, we are more likely than men to talk about things like our mental and physical health and family, things like that, that tends to center the self, those conversations. But men are more likely than women to talk about current events and sports decenters self. So even in our conversations, it's very intimate. And then they find that women tend to integrate their friends into their lives to the degree of a sibling, men to the degree of a cousin. And so I'm certainly not saying that men don't also experience these deep friendships. They do, but more often than not, you'll see that with women,

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:13):

You just threw so much at us based on the research that made perfect sense. And if you are listening and you're a guy and you've always wondered why does my partner or my girlfriend have so much drama? Why did my sister have so many problems? There was so much in what you just shared with us. Even just the fact that it's true. If I think about my brother or my husband or my son, they do kind of just travel in groups.

 

(00:09:46):

And If I think about myself, it's like since the history of time I've been searching for that best friend. I've been pairing off into one person, and I'm sure we're going to dig into this, but even just understanding that the research is really bearing out that we tend to go one-to-one, and the men and boys in our life tend to operate in groups. And what you just said I thought was genius about how if you're in a group, there is a bit of an anonymity, but if you're with just one person or small groups of people that you feel this deep sense of belonging to, there's a lot more vulnerability and a lot more that seems to be at stake. I know. I've certainly felt that.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:10:31):

Yeah, it's hard to hide when it's me and you at coffee, and it's very reciprocal. If it's just you and I, you talk, I talk. There's no confusion around whose turn it is to share. I am more deeply known here. I'm more accountable here because it's me and you. And I think that's also why we kind of see that running joke where your husband comes home from hanging out with the boys and you're like, oh my gosh. So did they have the baby? Why did they divorce? And he is like, oh, I don't know. I didn't ask. So it's like a running joke, but there's some truth to that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:11:00):

Well, and you also said this thing about how male relationships, friendships tend to be more like a cousin, and your relationship with the girls or women in your life is more like a sibling and sisters fight.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:11:12):

That's right.

 

Mel Robbins (00:11:13):

And sisters have drama.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:11:14):

That's right.

 

Mel Robbins (00:11:15):

And yet there's a big difference between what happens with your sister and what happens when there's tension or jealousy or possessiveness with a friend. One of the things that you've researched that I'd like to start with is that you found that there's this framework. There are three affinities you call them, that are necessary parts of female friendship. So can you explain that?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:11:39):

Yes. So I call it the three affinities of female friendship. And I got really excited when I found this because I started to notice that it didn't matter which discipline I was looking at anthropology, sociology, psychology. I kept seeing these emerge, 

(00:12:34):

Oh my God, same Me too. So thriving on that, I am, you are me. And then when that symmetry shifts or we start to sense like, oh, we're on different paths, or she's maybe not like me, that tension of we're not in the same lane, what's going on here? So symmetry is really powerful, and that egalitarianism piece and symmetry feeling like equals. So if you have a woman who you feel like she's starting to be judgy about your parenting or your business choices, I mean the undertone or the subtext there is that her choices are better, are superior, right? She's coaching you or talking down to you supposed to be, we're the same, we're equals.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:13):

But does it also happen that it's not that she's necessarily talking down to you, but that you're also beating yourself up because you're, oh, well, she's better looking and everybody's attracted to her or she's getting more money than I am. And so you start to feel like not only are we not equal, but I'm now looking at you and your example is a reason why I'm now beating myself up and feeling less

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:13:35):

A hundred percent. And so much of this is perception. Maybe she's doing nothing wrong, but because of things happening in your life, you're perceiving this imbalance. So much of it is subjective. Oh,

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:45):

That was me. I was a walking friendship red flag. Oh yeah. You could have had an entire section of this book called Melanie Schneeberger, which is a mouthful of a name that was my maiden name. I saw everybody's a threat. I literally don't think I had that symmetry in a lot of my friendships. And I can see how if you don't feel like we're in this together, then it would create this conflict and tension in your relationship with somebody else.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:14:20):

Sure. Because how do I befriend the threat that doesn't even go together? So seeing you as an extension of myself and seeing women in general as an extension of myself, I am, you are me. You're not my competition. I mean it directly impacts the way that we engage with our friendships. So that symmetry piece is really important. And then we have support. There's some research that tells us that the number one thing women look for in their same sex friendships is emotional support. So that means that there's nothing else I expect you have my back. I expect some shows of solidarity, gestures of emotional help. What makes that tricky is we so often don't articulate what support looks like because I think that as another woman, you ought to know, I shouldn't have to say it. That will certainly make things complicated.

 

Mel Robbins (00:15:04):

Every time you say something, I'm thinking about a dynamic that's negative with a former friend or something that I did. Because even when you said that sentence about support, I mean, how many times have we sat alone? And then when a friend comes to you and is like, I didn't even know you were struggling. You're like, well, you just kind of feel this sense of, well, you should have known, but you never said anything.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:15:29):

I wonder how much of that is how they say women have that sixth sense if I believe that to be true, that women's intuition, which I think we do have, do I believe that you should be picking up my cues? We have that intuition. So should I have to say the thing? And I think a lot of us subscribe to the idea that if we are close, me having to say what I want detracts from the closeness we're supposed to have. So you just knowing it without me saying it is evidence of how much you get me. But we don't expect that in any other relational context. So it just feels really unfair that your friend should be mind readers, but everybody else you anticipate needing to communicate what you need. And so I think if we can keep in mind that you'll never get to a point of closeness that transcends a need to communicate, you're going to have to say the thing.

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:16):

Well, I also just keep, I don't know why the word silent treatment is coming up, but I feel as though if a woman feels like she's not getting the support that she deserves from another female friend, one of the go-to immature behaviors and behaviors that create conflict and tension is you withdraw. And in your research did you see a lot of that, the tendency to pull back sort of silently expecting that somebody's then going to come and ask you what's wrong, so you get the support and the attention that you want.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:16:49):

Oh, absolutely. Whether that's because we don't know how to articulate it,

 

(00:16:53):

Whether it's because we have this belief that I shouldn't have to say it, she ought to pick up on the cues. I do see that emotional distance followed by physical distance. I'm calling you less. I'm initiating less because I'm so turned off by that thing you failed to do. I'm now silently stacking offenses, and that's why you have so many of us who are like, I don't know, she kind of cut me off. I don't really know what I did because I'm not going to announce it. I've just been saving that up and I expect that you ought to know I shouldn't have to say that. It just kind of compounds the issue.

 

Mel Robbins (00:17:25):

When we do that, as you're listening to Danielle right now, you're probably thinking of people in your life, friendships where this has happened, where you're recognizing that either the first affinity, which is asymetry disappeared or something shifted it and the person no longer became same. I'm in it too. And whether you viewed them as a threat or they started talking down to you, that frenemy thing starts to come into play. And then I certainly am experiencing, as you're talking about support and the sense that, well, I'm not getting the support and you should know what I need because we've been in this close one-on-one relationship. And then you start to resent the person. So you pull away.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:18:09):

And it's so hard because if you ask anyone, we all think we're giving adequate support, who among us is going to say, yeah, I don't support my friends. We all think we're doing a good job. So there's obviously a gap here when there's those of us who are walking around feeling a lack of support, it can get really tricky. And then that third affinity is secrecy. So this doesn't necessarily speak to literal secrets, but the essence of that. So feeling like you and I are in this mutually exclusive vault where we engage in self-disclosure, I share you share because that is the glue of women's friendship is sharing. And as soon as I start to have tension with you, I share less because me sharing and how much you know of me is probably indicative of how close we are. And then when there's tension, I'm sharing less.

 

(00:19:00):

Or if I feel like you've shared outside of the vault, if you're telling personal things to somebody else, I begin to question our closeness. I begin to question, well, do you not trust me? And so of course intellectually I know you can have other friends, but there's something around that sharing piece. If you tell somebody else first about the promotion, the pregnancy, the health scare, I do question, well, are we close? Because you didn't bring it here in the vault, right? I've even heard women who are disappointed when the friend just doesn't share, you feel like I'm the only one pouring into this. She never tells me anything about herself. So that really is the glue of women's friendship, is that mutual self-disclosure.

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:40):

When I was reading your book and I read Secrecy is one of these affinities of a female friendship that make it either very positive or very negative. I was like, secrecy, wait, what? And then all of a sudden I realized, wait a minute, to the women I feel the closest to, we always joke, you'll be my best friend forever because too much about me, otherwise I'd have to kill you. You know what I'm saying? But there have also been moments where close friends of mine have been struggling, and I find out six weeks later that something has been going on and my first reaction is anger that you didn't let me know why am I hearing this from somebody else? And so I realized I never thought about it in the context of it makes you question how close you actually are. It makes you question whether or not this person trusts you, whether or not this person feels that you're somebody that they can lean on. And so it makes perfect sense, but it's so counterintuitive.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:20:43):

Yeah, information is like in our relationships and it's kind of the thing that we start doing as soon as there is tension is I share less. If I start to feel like, I don't know, things have been weird, I'm probably not sharing things with you. And so I think as much as we can remember, if we're trying to keep the friendship strong as much as we can remember, I've got to share things about myself. I've heard women who maybe were raised with different cultures who feel like sometimes that's counterintuitive because there's a sense of pride or respect or an expectation that you don't share your business with others. We don't do that. And so I can honor that and respect that before the person who has that tendency or had that cultural upbringing that you don't share, you keep that to yourself. I would challenge that person to think about the degree to which they feel close to people in their life if they're not doing that

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:35):

Well. What I love about this framework is that when you put it in the context of all the other research, in terms of the trends and the tendencies of how boys and guys connect, whether it's in groups where you can be a little bit more anonymous, things are a little bit more casual, you're bonding over the big thing, you're doing a lot of stuff together, versus women who tend to bond over kind of intimate conversations, one-on-one shared experiences. You can see why if the connection is grounded in those three deeper things and you feel connected to somebody because of this reciprocity, so to speak, why you start to have this very intense feeling all had it where you've been super close friends or you've been part of a friend group of women or girls, and then suddenly you feel like you're on the outside of it.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:22:28):

Totally.

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:28):

And it feels like a deep betrayal and heartbreak, and you're not quite sure why. But I think you explained why. Because the intimacy that is demanded in female friendships is very different. And it's also the source of all the conflict and the tension and the friction that starts to happen.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:22:47):

And I do think if a person finds themselves on the outskirts or there's been some kind of this tectonic shift that was happening slowly and you're like, things are different, to kind of look at those three things and see if you can trace it back. Did somebody perceive that there was a change? And we can no longer relate to one another. Is someone secretly feeling like you didn't support me? Is someone feeling like you've been sharing outside the vault or you're not my person to share with anymore? It's likely that you can trace whatever your present conflict is back to those three things. And just because there is tension that emerges in one of those domains doesn't mean immediate dissolution of the friendship. That's information I can use to know how to recalibrate or to have a conversation so we can get back to our equilibrium. But hopefully it's a good starting point for people who are struggling to find that language.

 

Mel Robbins (00:23:33):

Well, I also think with the support piece, it's interesting because when you go through a struggle in your life, whether it's in a relationship or a health scare, or maybe you lose a job or something's going on with one of your kids, you tend to withdraw and then you do feel a little better. At least I have in periods of my life where I struggle, what I'm going through is a burden to other people, and so I don't want to share. And so there's those moments where you withdraw because you actually need support, but you're embarrassed or you feel just the heaviness of it. You don't want to talk about it, but then your friends are left wondering, where'd you go? Where'd you go? And so I can see how each one of these factors, it really gives you both something to look at that makes it not personal, but also something to look at so you can be more compassionate with other people and you can be more compassionate with yourself because everybody's changing all the time. And so is your life.

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:24:37):

Well, I'll tell you this. We do have friendships that end. I think we know that intellectually like, oh, French don't last forever, but when it happens, it becomes very difficult to make sense of

 

Mel Robbins (00:24:47):

Yes,

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:24:48):

I see that we have a lot of shame around that. I think we put a lot of value on longevity in friendships. So when it's over, we start to think, what's wrong with me? What did I do wrong that I can't keep a friendship going? I always encourage women to think about if you're feeling that shame over not being able to make a friendship last, how do you measure success in a friendship? Is it one that never ends? Is it one where we loved each other really well during this time that we were friends, but friendship breakups are really difficult and sometimes they do dissolve.

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:21):

Why are they so difficult? I'm thinking about a friend of mine that was my most favorite human being when I was in college. And we even to this day, have matching tattoos and we had a very bad breakup, and this was over 30 years ago, and I still think about her. Is that normal? Why am I doing that? I don't think about the boyfriends that I had huge breakups with, and they were inside me for crying out loud, and I had the love drug inside of us. Why is it the breakup with a female friend? My husband has grown distant from people. He's had breakups with people. He doesn't think about them. Why do we do this?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:26:07):

Okay, so

 

Mel Robbins (00:26:08):

And am I normal, Danielle? That's what I'm asking you.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:26:10):

Yeah, you are. I have some of those too, and I kind of maybe see them as my ones that got away, maybe like a platonic could. We have worked that out. And I still see things and it makes me think of her. My theory is that because of how deeply we integrate our women friends into our lives, naturally, I'm still thinking about you when that's over. And there're even some theories that find that women's relationships become a part of their self concept. So how I see myself is largely through the lens of how you see and experience me. And if you think that I am interesting and funny and lovable, and then that friendship ends or you elected to leave, I'm questioning, am I still interesting and lovable and funny if she would leave me? And so I think it's natural to still grieve over losing friends, to still be confused about what went wrong, what we could have done differently, and then also have that kind of influence the way we engage in friendships moving forward. If you have a friend who told you, you're just too much. Am I going into new friendships? A little tapered down because I don't want to be too much. So it does leave a lasting impression when we have friendships with other women that end, you

 

Mel Robbins (00:27:24):

Made me have a bit of a breakthrough, an epiphany about this topic. As I was listening to you and I was thinking about my friend, it made me sad about who I was at that period in my life and the fact that she distanced herself. And it reminds me that I was not in a great place and I was not a good friend. And because it's unresolved, it keeps that part of me in some way kind of alive inside me. Does that make sense? Totally. And that if she had come back into my life, it sort of feels like it helps with the acceptance that you've grown as a person. And that's why I also feel like I probably hold onto this a little bit, that I have a lot of regrets about how I acted. I was like that clingy, possessive, lying, jealous friend. Oh my God, thank God you and I didn't know each other back then, and I'm a different person. And so there's something about romantic relationships that I am able to forgive myself and move on. But when a friendship ends, you don't really quite ever replace somebody in that category in that same way. Do you know what I mean?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:28:43):

Yeah, totally. I think with romantic breakups as well, it's so easy to dismiss it as well. That wasn't my person. I think that helps us to be able to move on. You also kind of going into a romantic relationship. This might not work out. Let's just see. That's so true. But you're rarely expecting or considering the end at the beginning of friendship. I just know that I like you, so let's get this thing going. I'm not prepared or even considering an ending. And I think that makes you even more disruptive when it happens. And then like I said, because it's so integrated into our lives, it becomes difficult sometimes to move

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:18):

Forward. What I love about your book Fighting for Our Friendships is that you not only go straight at this and you unpack all the things that we, or I'll speak for myself, I got profoundly wrong about navigating female friendships. But what I also love is that the same three-part framework that you say is present for all deep connections between girls and women. It also explains what's missing when you start to feel conflict and frustration. And so let's go to conflict. Let's talk about all of the things that are really challenging about female friendships. And if I turn to page 44 in your book, there's this concept that you talk about. I mean, we even have a term for it, former friendships. I don't think I'd ever hear my son or my husband say former friendships. And yet when I read your list, the roommate turned bestie that I outgrew the college friend who phased me out when she got a boyfriend. Oh, that was me. Coworker bestie who disappears when you start working somewhere else. My mom friend who I grew close to, but eventually lost trust in the friend I had to release because she didn't reach out enough, the church friend who cut me off because I didn't reach out enough.

 

(00:30:44):

I have every one of those or I've been that. Why is this a

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:30:49):

Phenomenon? There is research that shows that girls, young girls have more former friendships than boys. But I want to say this because I know it's tempting for some people to hear that and say, well, yeah, because girls are petty. Well, yeah, because girls are always upset about something. And I hear that a lot from men and women. Sadly. Here's my response to that. The research finds that our friendships are deeper, but that they do dissolve at a faster rate.

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:16):

Really? Why?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:31:17):

I don't think that's because we just always want to be in some drama. I think it's because if you are so deeply integrated into my life as my friend, okay, we're sharing resources, you're helping me raise my children, you're giving me career advice, you're in this with me, then yeah, it increases the chances that there might be some friction all up in my business. I'm less likely to fall out with somebody who I'm not even close to. So if men are keeping their friends at a distance and we check in three times a year, you probably aren't having fallouts because you're not that up close. If you're in my business as my female friend, there's a higher chance that there is going to be something that goes wrong. So I can keep you at arm's length and be your best friend for 20 years, no problem, because I'm checking in once a quarter. But when we go play basketball, I'm not talking about details of my life. We could be best friends all day. So there is a risk in having somebody who's so deeply close to you, but then we've got to get to the business of trying to navigate that when those conflicts arise,

 

Mel Robbins (00:32:21):

One of the things that I keep thinking about is that friendships don't end. They just sort of come in and out and they're flexible and it's helped me be less judgy of myself. But it's interesting that the research says that friendships for girls and women dissolve faster and more often than it does for boys and men. And I do think the missteps start to happen when we're little and we're forming friends for the first time because I'm not sure anybody ever teaches you how to make friends or why you need friends. One question I have before we kind of go backwards is 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:33:17):

First of I'll say that I don't think being competitive or envious is exclusive to women. We're all competitive. We all get a little envious. And I think it's because we use our friends as a measure of our own progress. So you're very close in my proximity. So it kind of shows me, oh, are we having babies at this rate we're having? How am I doing with my money and my style? I'm looking to my friends purely from a sociological perspective to see, am I on track?

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:44):

Right?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:33:44):

Right. So we're all feeling a little like we're using our friends to gauge how we're doing. I think what's so hard around envy that women experience with one another, I do wonder to what degree the patriarchy influences that. If I'm hearing voices telling me I need to look a certain way and have a certain progress in my life, and my friends are in very close proximity, I'm kind of projecting that onto them If they're making certain choices or making certain advances and not I have them to look at to see how I'm doing. But I wonder also how much room we have to express that without looking like the jealous friend. So we harbor it secretly or we monitor because I don't want to look like I am jealous, so I keep it inside. And that comes out in terms of resentment or shade or frenemies. So it does become kind of sticky.

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:33):

I want to build on that because I have a theory about this,

 

(00:34:37):

Especially given that you were a English teacher in a high school and you're a mom, and I'm a mom of two daughters and you have a daughter. Here's my theory. If you take it as fact that the average age that a girl gets her period is the age of 12, that's a huge life-changing event. And what happens when you get your period, at least in today's world, is it's like a very public event. It seems like everybody knows in your class, all the girls know, even the boys know, and your body starts to change and you feel this loss of control that is very public. And then there's an added layer around the fact that what do people say when you get your period, you're 12 years old, and what are the first thing they say? Oh, well now you're a woman. Oh, you're a woman now.

 

(00:35:28):

So you become sexualized. And that also I believe in a very subconscious and subtle, but not so subtle way, changes your relationship to other women. And I personally believe that two things happen. Number one, it's been very well researched as you know how girls' confidence drops off a cliff between the age of 12 and 14, the age of 12. Boys and girls have the exact same levels of confidence by the age of 14 girls experience a 46% drop in confidence. But check out what they're also saying in this research about friends that 60% of girls by the age of 14 are not confident that they can make new friends. Here's a girl who's 18. This would've been somebody in your English class. I'm not confident in making friends because I'm afraid of making mistake. I feel like everybody's so smart and pretty and I'm just this ugly girl without friends. I feel that if I acted like my true self, that no one would like me. And there's this memory that I have of being in middle school, and it's kind of when the dances start. And I don't know if it's like this now. I mean I'm literally talking 40 years ago, but when the slow songs would start, there's this phenomenon where the guys pick a girl to dance with.

 

(00:36:57):

And it's in that moment that you start to see that there are girls that get all the attention. And I know in those moments, I literally hated my best friends because they were getting picked and I wasn't. And I feel like there is something that happens then that really in many ways makes you feel like you're against the other girls in competition for something other than grades other than sports. It's this social and sexual status that feels largely out of your control. At least that's what I felt. And I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts about that.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:37:45):

There are researchers that lean into intersexual competition.

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:48):

What does that mean? What's intersexual?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:37:49):

So when you have women who are vying for the attention of males and somewhat argue that it's a purely evolutionary thing that when you do begin to menstruate and your body is now showing and developing that, that does now attract the attention of males. So I could see that being the reason why during that middle school period, we feel like something shifting, something's going on. I even talked to a woman, her name is Dr. Hannah Bradshaw, and we even looked at guys, girls versus girls, girls. And she also said that during that stage how women perceive each other, maybe we start treating her differently. She does draw the attention of men and start hanging out with them, but she finds that it's a bi-directional relationship that girls who are around boys and boys come sniffing around and they're hanging out. We find ourself looking at the girl like Oof, who does she think she is because she's around these males. But if you ask the girl why she's hanging out with males all the time, she'll say that she's over there because the girls are mistreating her. So it's a sort of refuge and protection. So it's kind of like this thing that continues to emerge in a cycle. And I definitely see that too.

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:56):

Well, it's an important thing to talk about because I think these feelings are very normal

 

(00:39:01):

When you don't know what to do with them, you either aim them at yourself or you aim them at the other person. The other thing I wanted to talk about related to middle school is that this elementary innocence and navigating friendship and everybody's trying to figure it out and we're all in it together. What the heck is that phenomenon that happens in middle school where everybody's like, I need a bff. And you start to become defined by, oh, well, Danielle is Susan's best friend, and even the seeking out of that alliance becomes something that is very prominent for girls that age. But I don't see it happening in the same way for guys. What is that about?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:39:46):

I think that goes back to a little bit of what we said earlier around guys just collecting just casual relationships. Being on a squad, it's not really close or meaningful, but they're on a squad. But we even kind of promote the idea to young girls, we'll even ask them from a young age, is that your best friend? Is that your bestie? Do you want something for your best friend? And we've got the chains with the hearts from Claire's. It's like best friend. So from the very beginning, being trained to identify who that one person is. And I've also heard it said that relationships are a woman's primary resource. And I wonder if it's kind of like the social currency, especially at that age is how many friends do you have? And we see the girl with lots of friends, and what determinations do I begin to make about her? She must be likable and cool. So the girl who's got a lot of friends, but especially if you have a bestie, 

Mel Robbins (00:40:46):

What would you say to the person who's listening to you right now who either experienced not having a best friend or not feeling like they were part of a good friend group or they're seeing somebody that they care about experiencing it right now?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:41:03):

I would tell that woman, you are not alone. There's some research that finds that 40% of adults don't have a best friend. So there's a lot of people out here who don't have that maybe in this particular season of their life. It doesn't make you any less important or worthy or lovable to not have that one person. And if you don't ask yourself if you can get all the things you need from the collective rather than the singular,

 

(00:41:30):

I think it's a romantic notion, this idea of the one person who offers you multiple things. She's your mom friend, your happy hour buddy. It's very cool when that one person satisfies all those things. But until maybe you find that person, can you find that from the collective, from multiple people, you're getting laughter, you are getting growth opportunities, you're sharing resources. Are you getting that from the village? Because maybe right now that's more important than having the one person who satisfies all the things. And so I just need that woman to know you are not alone. There are so many people who are in the same boat. And to resist the urge to internalize that and to wonder what's wrong with you because you don't have that right now.

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:14):

And if you're a parent or you're just worried about a girl or a young woman who feels like she's just been iced out of her friend group. I remember when our daughters were in high school, one of my close, close friends, her daughter was going through something and her friend group dropped her. I just remember how many tears her mother and I had over What do you do? This kid has been, basically the words feel so kicked out of excluded, just dropped by a friend group. What would you say to a person that feels like that's just happened to them?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:43:01):

It's really hard, especially as a parent, to not want to drive up to that school and find those girls and be like, what the heck is your problem? It's hard.

 

Mel Robbins (00:43:10):

So you're saying we shouldn't text them or their parents or get involved, is that what you're saying?

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:43:15):

Yeah. No, it's hard, especially as a mama bear, you're like, I want my girl to feel confident and to belong, and how dare people reject her? That is painful. And it's painful to watch your babies go through anything in the meantime because a lot of times we talk about handling what you can control that is hurtful. And there's even research that finds that being rejected socially lights up the same parts of your brain as experiencing physical pain. So she's not being dramatic. It is hurtful to not have people. And it's even worse sometimes when you don't know what you did wrong.

 

Mel Robbins (00:43:50):

And so what do you do or what should you say or do you not say anything at all? Do you just give the person space to grieve? Do you acknowledge it? I didn't. I don't know what to do.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:44:02):

Yeah, yeah. Well, one of the things we can do is to share with that young woman who's in that situation is what she can do right now is to continue to show up, let's say in this situation at school, to show up to school, to be kind to others, to confidently go about her day and to have connections with people. And if she feels comfortable going to one of the young women who she trusts most in the group, because sometimes we feel like it's us versus this large capital G group.

 

(00:44:27):

So go to a person in the group who you trust most and say, Hey, I'm noticing we're not talking as much what's going on? And to ask. And at that point, they're responsible for letting us know what it is or not. But if there are people, they would let us know if they were your people, they wouldn't take pleasure in isolating you. If they were your people, they'd call you in and not push you out. And so it could be a good exercise for her in terms of identifying who your people are. And so suffering any kind of loss is really painful. And like we said, especially women's friendships because so deep. But these are not your people. And it's tricky because you think, but no mom, they are. Those are my girls. But your people would never take delight in pushing you out, rejecting you, watching you agonize over what you did wrong and not coming to relief. Some of that confusion and distress. They're not your people.

 

Mel Robbins (00:45:21):

I had one of our daughters use this term a ladder, and she was remarking about how she's in this period of her life and she lives in a part of the world and is in an industry where she says that it's like you're with your people on a certain rung and we're all in it together and we commiserate and we're bonded and we're kind of supporting one another. But then the second somebody goes to the next rung in the ladder, either in this city, in a social climbing group or in this industry, and you get some success. It's like the rung that you were with disappears, and even seeing that somebody that you thought that you were close with, and next thing you know you're part of a bigger group and next thing you know you're on the outside, but they're staying on the inside, that is a painful thing. You lose the group and you lose the person that you were close to before the group.

 

Danielle Bayard Jackson (00:46:18):

A hundred percent. Yeah. That is really painful. I think those are the moments where those three affinities of female friendship come out to play when we no longer feel the same. When we begin to take different priorities, different values emerge. And even though I have a history with you, an affection for you, it's just not working out. I think sometimes it's even easier to release friendships when we can easily identify a villain. It feels easier when you betray me. I'm upset, but it's easier to let go. It's harder to let go when I still like you, but things have shifted and it's simply not compatible. Despite my desire to stay in relationship with you might be even more painful. I can't make sense of it, and I don't know why. We just don't work, but we don't. And so again, I think intellectually we know that friendships dissolve, but it is really hard when it happens in real life.

 

Mel Robbins (00:47:12):

I think you just actually answered it. I think one of the reasons why there is a lot of frenemy and conflict and jealousy is because the process of