How To Handle Difficult People & Take Back Your Peace and Power

Jefferson Fisher (00:15):

You're going to pose questions for them. I never listen to you. I want to make sure I understood that I never listened to you. Is it that you feel that I never listened to you? Or is it that I actually objectively never listen?

 

Mel Robbins (00:30):

Holy cow. How do you respond to disrespect?

 

Jefferson Fisher (00:33):

A lot of silence. They're wanting a reaction. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward, and then you're going to say something to the effect of, that's below my standard for a response.

 

Mel Robbins (00:50):

How do you handle someone who's gaslighting you?

 

Jefferson Fisher (00:53):

There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over.

 

Mel Robbins (01:01):

Hey, it's Mel. I'm so excited that you're here. It is always such an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I also want to take a moment and acknowledge you for taking time to listen to something that could truly help you live a better life. And I love what you and I are going to be talking about on today's episode because we're going to get to spend some time today with the incredible trial lawyer Jefferson Fisher. I wouldn't be surprised if you've actually seen him online because every single day millions of people watch the videos that Jefferson makes from the front seat of his car, in between his court cases and meetings with his clients. Jefferson's strategies for handling belittlement, gaslighting, fake apologies. Toxic behavior and difficult conversations are game change jurors. Boom. He is so good. I'm so excited. So let's get into it. Jefferson Fisher, I am so thrilled you're back on the Mel Robbins podcast.

 

Jefferson Fisher (01:59):

Thank you for having me,

 

Mel Robbins (02:00):

And congratulations on your new book. The Next Conversation, argue Less, talk More.

 

Jefferson Fisher (02:06):

Thank you very much. I'm very proud of it. Very excited to help a lot of people.

 

Mel Robbins (02:10):

Well, I can't wait to dig in to the topic of how you can communicate effectively and hold on to your power, particularly when you're dealing with difficult people, challenging situations. But before we get into the tactics, can you just talk to the person listening and if they take everything that you're about to teach them from your new book and they put it to use in their life, what are they going to experience?

 

Jefferson Fisher (02:41):

They're going to experience a sense of control in knowing who they are and who they want to be. And by that I mean they'll have a sense of control. If they can stand their ground in that next conversation, they can handle that difficult toxic person in their next conversation. And even more so, they'll be able to navigate who they want to be and where they want to go in their life simply by the words that they say. Next.

 

Mel Robbins (03:07):

What I love about your work and the reason why I'm so excited about your book is because it is really unsettling to have to deal with somebody that is a difficult personality.

 

(03:24):

And I want to invite you as you're listening to the conversation today and getting to spend some time learning from Jefferson, I want you to think about someone in your life that is really difficult. It might be an ex-spouse and you had a contentious breakup or divorce, and you have to deal with them because of the kids. Maybe it's your mom or your father-in-law or a brother-in-law. Maybe you have a issue with a child or a boss at work, just like tension, frustration, grudges, all these things that can really make the dynamic challenging because I know that everything that you're going to learn from Jefferson today is going to help you hold onto your power whenever you are going to need to deal with this person. And one of the things I'd love for you to just explain is how did the experience of being a trial lawyer really prime you and your expertise in being able to deal effectively with somebody who has a challenging personality or is argumentative? How did that shape you in the way that you approach this?

(05:33):

So there's that sense of control of, yeah, you can say what you need to say. That doesn't mean I need to say what I want to say. So there's this confidence that you can have from questioning people in the courtroom. Another would be standing that conflict, that argument is simply a window into another person's struggle when I'm representing a client and you're representing another client lot of the time. It's a weird occupation though. If you think about it, people hire me to have beef with somebody I don't have beef with, and then what makes even harder is they hire somebody to have beef with me. So when you're arguing with that opposing attorney, he and I or she and I, we don't have any problems really. We're just taking on the problems of somebody else and you can't, arguments aren't something to win, and especially in the courtroom, you just give the evidence and the facts a voice. You advocate for those facts under the given law. So it's very different in that sense. But the same rules apply that the less you say, the more powerful you sound, the more confident you express yourself, the more you seem more confident in yourself. So it's these little tips that I like to give from the courtroom that help me understand that difficult people are just people. We can all be difficult.

 

Mel Robbins (06:57):

So the thing that I'm already taking away is that even viewing someone as being super difficult or being narcissistic in their personality type or holding grudges or negative or whatever label you want to put, that right there is already a problem because you already flipped it on its head and said, this is just a person that wants attention. This is a person who wants to be understood and they don't feel understood, which is why you're getting all that negativity on the surface. And so number one, if I'm listening and hearing you correctly, if you even just flip your viewpoint about this person to Hey, this is just another human being who has not the best way of trying to get themselves understood, that right there already lowers the intensity of the interaction.

 

Jefferson Fisher (07:54):

Yeah, it is that mindset. If you go into it knowing or telling and convincing yourself that this person is difficult, well all of a sudden you've made it difficult for you.

 

(08:05):

Well, what's to stop you from thinking this person is somebody I need to make sure I listen to. Sometimes the goal is too high. If your goal is they need to believe everything that I say they need to do everything that I do, you're never going to get that. Instead, if you can go into the conversation with a much smaller goal of like, I want to make sure that they understand me. I want to make sure that I understand them. I want to make sure that I listen to them without interrupting. I want to make sure that I listen to the end of their sentences. That's very rare for people to listen to the end of somebody's sentence. So you find that often when it's a difficult conversation, you're the one that's called it difficult. You're the one who's made it difficult from the outset for yourself. You haven't had the conversation yet. Now you might know that person to tend to have personalities or behaviors that can be seen objectively as difficult. But often when you hear that person say, you don't listen to me, what they're saying on the inside is, I want to feel heard. I want you to connect with me. I want to be understood.

Jefferson Fisher (09:19):

If they come in hot and heavy like that, then nobody ever listens to me. Well, then you're going to be the opposite of that, meaning you're going to pose questions for them. For example, that never, that's one word that's an extreme. You're going to attach. I never listen to you. I want to make sure I understood that. I never listen to you. Typically, they'll draw back from that because then you use an extreme. They know you have to listen to them. Then you go pull at another layer. Is it that you feel that I never listen to you? Or is it that I actually objectively never listen? You go it again. Okay, so you feel like I don't listen to that. Well, let's talk about it. Let's keep going. That's helpful to know. I'm here, I'm listening. I like to change that. You just find ways to go at it.

 

Mel Robbins (10:12):

Again, that was masterful. And I know I'm not the only one Jefferson who is now going to take that script and start using it with people in their life, and I am thinking of some one person in particular, whenever they get upset, that's a thousand percent what they say. And I now know because I'm learning from you. Listen to the end of the sentence, take a beat. You also did this technique that I noticed where you lowered when I raised my voice and you slowed the conversation down by simply slowing the pace of the question and you're asking the question, not like a jerk, like, oh, so I never listen to you. The other thing that people do versus saying, I never listen to you.

 

Jefferson Fisher (11:13):

Yeah, it's powerful stuff. If you can, anytime when somebody is going super high,

 

Mel Robbins (11:18):

They're

 

Jefferson Fisher (11:19):

Yelling, you go even slower, even lower your voice because then you're the one who sounds calm and in control and they're the one that seems like they're on the extremes. Their voice and their brain and their ear will hear that and they'll start to lower it. They don't like to be out in the extremes, so they'll start to slow themselves down. What I teach my clients is that the person that you see is often not the person you are talking to. And what I mean by that is I've had a client, not a client, but a witness that I was deposing

 

(11:57):

And he was ugly with me, and he was big and brash and didn't like any of the questions I was asking him. I asked him the question, so what are you struggling with today? I said, let's just set aside the case. What are you struggling with right now? Struggl? And he went on to tell me about how he was having a hard time with his mother. He had just had to put her in a nursing home, assisted living. His father has passed away. His brother was out in the oil field and he was the only one to take care of her. And he was just nervous about it. And he had been getting letters from attorneys.

 

(12:35):

And so this big guy who was in front of me, even though he was being ugly, to mean in that conversation, I knew that the person I saw, it's not the person I was talking to. You have that when every conversation you have, yeah, you see this person and they look mad and they look ugly, but who's the person you're talking to? The person behind the counter, the person who waits on you, the cashier, every one of them is a chance to have connection with that person because who you talk to right then affects how they talk to everybody else. It's a ripple effect. How you talk to your kids affects how they're going to talk to their kids. How you talk to the person who takes your order. If you're rude to them, well, they're going to have a harder time talking to the people that they love when they go home. So it is a big circle of life in a way.

 

Mel Robbins (13:23):

Well, it's also what you're pointing to is you have power.

 

Jefferson Fisher (13:26):

Oh,

 

Mel Robbins (13:27):

And we don't think about it that way. We get so wrapped up in the stress of our day-to-day lives that you forget that your words and your energy has tremendous power. And we give it away to other people. And particularly when somebody is a negative person or their difficult personality and you start to brace and you believe they have more power because of their bravado or their whatever, or the fact that they're constantly gaslighting you or erupting or they pull the silent treatment, all of these things that are wildly emotionally immature, but feels like they have more power over you, what you're saying is, no, no, no, no, no. You always have power.

 

Jefferson Fisher (14:15):

And I can tell the listener right now the kind of power that they will have.

 

Mel Robbins (14:19):

What is it? So

 

Jefferson Fisher (14:21):

I've had people, one of the ones recently I had was there was a wife who emailed me and said, I had an argument with my husband last night and I used one of your phrases, and that was to deescalate a conversation or argument I could have done better. She said, without hesitation, he said to me, I could have done better too. She said, in our 18 years of marriage, he's never said that to me. There's little phrases that you can find to deescalate that that's true power that you can have in a relationship in terms of the ripple effect that the true, you have a power to affect people you'll never, ever meet. And it's a wild thought, but it's true. I had somebody email me, this is probably two months ago, who said, I am somebody who helps with couples at foster homes,

 

(15:17):

And these parents were arguing, and I use one of your tips on how to communicate with them to get them to stop arguing and agree on something that will forever change their kids' lives. I'll never meet these kids. They'll never know me. They will probably never know the guy who helped them and emailed me. But it's just little things of what you say today will truly change the future of other people. You'll never ever meet people who have autism who can now make friends just by how you say certain things and how they can communicate. It's everything about you can be compressed into what you say next. And it's a beautiful thing.

 

Mel Robbins (16:00):

What was the phrase that you are hearing that has someone with autism communicate better?

 

Jefferson Fisher (16:09):

They weren't sure exactly how to talk to their friends. They were always afraid that they were always left out of it. And so it was this mindset that I tell them is, you just weren't supposed to be there, and that's okay. You weren't supposed to be there. And that mindset this father told me, helped his son understand if he wasn't invited, just meant he wasn't supposed to be there. And that he found different ways of going, well, this is where I need to be. And finding people who wanted to spend time with him, but he was feeling really hurt that he wasn't getting invited to that party or that thing. And so it's this mindset of that happens. It's okay. You aren't meant to be there. You're meant to be somewhere else. And that made them feel that he could make time for friends who cared.

 

Mel Robbins (16:58):

That's beautiful.

 

Jefferson Fisher (16:59):

Yeah,

 

Mel Robbins (16:59):

Really beautiful. So what was the phrase that helped the parents stop arguing in the foster situation?

 

Jefferson Fisher (17:10):

Is this something we have to agree on? So a tip that I use is, is this something we have to agree on? Usually it's not that stops arguments. It doesn't matter what the topic is. If you need to, you find that you're yan over the small stuff, the little things that often leads to the biggest arguments, you'll get these big arguments and go, what we even, how did this even start? How do we even get here? How often you can put all that to rest when you just even ask, is this something we have to agree on? If it is, you can ask again, is this something we have to agree on right now? So there's a timing element too, because often people push arguments on you when you're not ready, they'll push conversation on you when you're not ready, you got five minutes. What they really mean is, Hey, do you have about 48 minutes for me to tell you about something that you have no time for and your brain's locked into something else. And so they often push their own timing on you. So part of that standing up for yourself is defending your own time perimeter.

 

Mel Robbins (18:14):

Can you give me an example?

 

Jefferson Fisher (18:17):

Sure. So let's say you and I are choosing, let's say the best detergent. Okay? I dunno. That's just the first thing that came to mind.

 

Mel Robbins (18:30):

So let's say you're standing in the aisle at the grocery store and you grab detergent and your spouse then questions that detergent and these are these little things that become big things

 

Jefferson Fisher (18:45):

And that's what happens. Typically, your biggest arguments stem from the smallest little inconvenience, especially if you're married

 

Mel Robbins (18:52):

And you're saying that you're standing there in the grocery aisle and you say, do we have to agree on this right now?

 

Jefferson Fisher (18:58):

Exactly. Is this something we have to agree on at this moment right now? And they go, no,

 

Mel Robbins (19:04):

No, it's not that big. Yeah.

 

Jefferson Fisher (19:06):

But in that moment, just if you're not thinking about it, you start getting worked up.

 

Mel Robbins (19:10):

And what I love about it though is it's a very kind way to cue someone else that they're pushing an argument on you.

 

Jefferson Fisher (19:19):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (19:20):

What is the best way to handle the knock, knock, knock? You got five minutes and you know that with this person it's 48. How do you respond to that to protect your time?

 

Jefferson Fisher (19:32):

If the automatic feeling within you is no, then the answer is no, you don't. It's setting it later. I don't right now. Can we schedule this for tomorrow? What's your next week look like? Find ways to push it out. Because what you'll find is that five minutes they needed, right? Then that issue gets solved without you. They didn't really need it. They just came to talk.

 

Mel Robbins (19:55):

You mentioned that there are a number of phrases that you teach people to help you deescalate. Are there others that come to mind other than is this something we need to agree on right

 

Jefferson Fisher (20:06):

Now? There are phrases I'd say of the help pull down defensiveness, because often when I say something, the tendency, the default is for somebody to get defensive.

 

(20:20):

And that's natural. It's biological, it's your body going out. I perceive a threat, I'm going to send it right back. That's what fight or flight is in that element. The fight is I will throw hard words at you. I won't words to hurt you. Or if you're running from it, I got to get out of here, slam the door. I got to hang up. Finding different ways to deescalate situations. And what I like to tell them is you tell them what you learned. So after listening to you, I learned that this topic is important to you, or you tell them that they've been helpful, that's helpful to know, simple as that. Or you tell them what you agree on. Using the word agree, that does not mean you have to agree with what they said. It just means they just need to hear that word. In other words, instead of focusing on the content of that conversation, it is, I agree that this is something we need to talk about. I think I agree that this is a conversation worth having. Boom. That right there all of a sudden pulls down their defensiveness. They heard the word, I agree. They heard that this conversation as we're talking about great, they don't have to continue to push and feel defensive about it. They don't have to keep proving to you on something.

 

Mel Robbins (21:33):

It goes back to your earlier point that it's a person that doesn't feel like they're being heard.

 

Jefferson Fisher (21:38):

Exactly. And if you need to shift away from that, the, is this something we need to agree on? I like I could do better. I like maybe so, or maybe you're right. Those are two that I use often if I ever get an insult maybe or a rude comment in the litigation world. So when make some kind of offhand comment, I said, well, maybe you're right. Maybe. So who am I to say? It's that element of I get to control entirely what you say. Is that going to affect me or not? I have entire control over

 

Mel Robbins (22:18):

That. You forget that because what people say, it does have an emotional impact on you. You are going to react, but you get to choose how you respond,

 

Jefferson Fisher (22:30):

Especially if you always pick it up and carry it.

 

Mel Robbins (22:33):

Yes.

 

Jefferson Fisher (22:33):

So when it comes to taking things personally,

 

Mel Robbins (22:36):

For

 

Jefferson Fisher (22:36):

Example, a quick tool for that is what I tell myself is I'll just say, put it down Jefferson. When I'm taking things personally, I'm picking up what nobody has asked me to carry. I'm choosing to carry it before I know it. I'm just, I can't even carry it anymore. And to me, how often you take things personally is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people. Oh, if you never give somebody the benefit of the doubt, it's heavy. It's a heavy proposition. If you never give somebody the benefit of the doubt, instead of just waiting to see if truly that offhand look meant to say something to you, we recognize it as that. I thought you were mad at me.

 

Mel Robbins (23:24):

Yeah, you immediately internalize it and you have no idea what's actually going on.

Mel Robbins (23:37):

How do you handle somebody that kind of belittles you? They're like picking on your weight or they're constantly like are you still single? Especially people that you're close with have a way of belittling you. What do you do in those situations

 

Jefferson Fisher (23:55):

When somebody is belittling you or giving you a insult? And that hurtful comment, you make them repeat it. Because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you. And instead you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask 'em to repeat what they said, you're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they're expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that response time from you. Instead you're delaying that gratification for them, then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it, to say, I need you to say that again.

 

Mel Robbins (24:32):

I'm Thinking of like using this With a couple people in my life. We need to role play this.

 

Jefferson Fisher (24:39):

Sure.

 

Mel Robbins (24:40):

I'm trying to think of a scenario

 

Jefferson Fisher (24:41):

Like you just said right there, you're still single.

 

Mel Robbins (24:45):

I need you to repeat that.

 

Jefferson Fisher (24:46):

Yeah, so exactly. I'm not going to want to say that again because now that spotlight is on me. And then also what you'd lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, did you say that to hurt me? And now it's this mirror that they feel like, why did I say that? Oh, okay. And then they start to backtrack. Then you don't have to say anything, but if often I can just repeat what they said. So if somebody says to you, oh, so you're still single, I need you to say that again. Most likely they're not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. I'm still single. That's what you asked me. And all of a sudden they realize this isn't fun. They're not going to ask that kind of thing again. Wow. Or you just asked that question of Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? Oh, no, no, no, no. I didn't say that. What I meant was, and all of a sudden they're backing away because they know you're going to stand your ground.

 

Mel Robbins (25:51):

Wow. This is very eyeopening because I can see both situations where I need to use it and I can see situations where I probably say things and I'm thinking particularly to my adult kids, that probably feels belittling. I can think about our daughter out in Los Angeles and every time I see her, she's wearing a piece of clothing that I don't recognize. And so I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, is that new? And I'm thinking in my mind, where do you get the money for this? That kind of thing. And then she's literally like, yeah, I thrifted it and there's this little tiff thing. But if she were to say to me,

 

Jefferson Fisher (26:38):

If she was to ask you

 

Mel Robbins (26:40):

Question, are you trying to embarrass me? Yeah,

 

Jefferson Fisher (26:41):

Exactly. Are you trying insinuate something? Are you trying to say something that you're not wanting to tell me?

 

Mel Robbins (26:48):

Right. The question is what I'm saying on the surface, but what I'm actually accusing her of is not being responsible with her money.

 

Jefferson Fisher (26:57):

It's that mirror.

 

Mel Robbins (26:58):

Yes, yes.

 

Jefferson Fisher (27:00):

And so it takes away the power of their insult.

 

Mel Robbins (27:03):

Wow.

 

Jefferson Fisher (27:03):

When you can take all the fun out of it, you take all the oxygen out of their room and they realize that they're not going to be able to control you with that reaction that they were hoping to get from you.

 

Mel Robbins (27:14):

Holy cow. How do you respond to disrespect?

 

Jefferson Fisher (27:17):

A lot of silence so often if you just wait 10 seconds that you're going to add distance between what they said and how you're going to respond. And that makes it very clear because what they're wanting when somebody's disrespectful is the same way with belittling. They're wanting a reaction. They're saying this to get something out of you because in that moment they're feeling something, whether it's a fear, an insecurity, whatever it is, you're understanding you're not going to deliver on that same plane that they are. You're not going to be on that same level. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward. And then you're going to say something to the effect of That's below my standard for a response. And then all of a sudden they feel like the dynamic has been flipped. That's below my standard of respect. Something as simple as that. All of a sudden you're now making it clear that what you just said was beneath me and I don't respond to things that are beneath me in that way. And so now you're taking control of it. Now you're leaning into it what they thought was meant as a disrespect. They're now understanding that they're in the wrong place. What do you do?

Jefferson Fisher (29:25):

Depends how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting, you don't join in it and you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you're going to be a person that is kind to this person. So I've had it before where my grandfather came with me to Walmart. This is a terrible time. He was in a bad mood and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to, but I was the one that was, thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Being overly, Hey, I understand. Thank you. Making that eye contact with this other person. If this other person's not having a good time, and then you have that conversation, I had to have that conversation with my grandfather.

 

Mel Robbins (30:06):

How did you do that?

 

Jefferson Fisher (30:07):

I had to put a boundary, a very firm boundary of if this is the way you're going to talk to people, I can't come with you if you don't change the tone in which you're talking to people. Papa, I can't. I can't come. And so it very was, what am I saying? You're not being respectful to people. Yes I am. I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people and it's just having this conversation where they need to. It's the people you love and often you have to be their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him, and that means I also have to make sure that I need to, I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct. This is how you're talking to people.

 

Mel Robbins (30:58):

Has he changed?

 

Jefferson Fisher (30:59):

He has.

 

Mel Robbins (31:00):

Wow.

 

Jefferson Fisher (31:00):

We also just don't go to Walmart.

Jefferson Fisher (31:13):

My breath, it is crazy to me how your body controls what you say when you are feeling threatened. Maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My body says, I feel threatened about this. There is a threat. I need to do something. Either defend myself or get out of that situation, and when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath. Why? Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you'll say things that are louder outer, you will yell. You're trying to make the threat go away. But if you breathe well, I say a conversational breath, you take that, let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're going to have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So in terms of regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say,

 

(32:15):

But I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be misquoted, so it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is going to win it. Because if you think you can win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel, you lose your credibility. You've lost that connection. I mean, what have you got now? It's you want awkward silence between the two of you. You still have to possibly work with this person, live with this person. You've now just made it really awkward for the next few days before you make up. So you find ways to always just kind of control your breath and your shoulders

 

Mel Robbins (32:56):

And shoulders, like pull 'em back.

 

Jefferson Fisher (32:59):

No, you're putting them down. Often when you have your shoulders next to your ears is tension makes you cranky.

 

Mel Robbins (33:05):

Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less and understanding that you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks or does or what their emotional reaction is going to be. All of the power is on your side of the table and using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less so they have less to work with. Lowering your voice, deciding what you're going to respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't and who's worth the time and who isn't. What is worth pouring your energy into, and when you start to own that side of the power, you realize you're actually always in control.

 

Jefferson Fisher (33:54):

Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that understanding of I will engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation. You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to. And so it is this knowing of I can RSVP. No, I can politely decline. I don't have to attend if I don't want to. We've all been in those meetings where you person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least

 

Mel Robbins (34:33):

Me.

 

Jefferson Fisher (34:35):

That's what I'm realizing. It's the person who's least in the know of what's happening in the heart of that company versus the person who says less is often the person who's the most confident because confidence is very quiet, insecurities are very loud. There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over. I see things differently or I remember things differently period. And you can say that phrase is often as you need it.