Don’t Argue or Fight With a Difficult Person – Do This Instead (#1 Narcissism Expert)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:03):

Correct. Correct.

Mel Robbins (00:04):

What you're here to say is that this is a personality style that is maladaptive, that hurts other people.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:10):

Setting boundaries with narcissistic people is akin to hugging a porcupine. Show me a 30 5-year-old narcissist and I will show you someone who was horrible as a teenager. Show me someone who is horrible as a teenager. I don't know if they're going to be narcissistic when they're 35. You want a clear cut answer then There's not one. Try that with a narcissist. Call me up. Let me know how that works.

Mel Robbins (00:36):

Hey, it's your buddy Mel, and this weekend my husband and I are going to go to this function. And I don't want to get too specific because I don't want a particular person to know that I'm talking about them, but we're going to this function this weekend where there's going to be a particular person. Honestly, the person's really hard to deal with. It's always about them. They hate it when things don't go their way. And how do you know that? Because they either erupt or they stir the pot or they're constantly making trouble or they're sulking in the corner, like trying to draw the attention to them. And here's the other thing about this person and their personality. They don't have any interest in anyone but themselves unless of course they need something from you. And then of course, you're the first person that they're going to call.

(01:29):

Now I've bet you've got someone or maybe many people like this in your life too. They never ask you a single question about your life. It's like it doesn't even occur to them. And it's not like it has to be about me all the time, but it's so clear when you're around this person that it's always about them. Is this ringing any bells for you? Maybe it's your brother. Maybe it sounds like I'm describing your boss or your dad or your mom, or maybe it's the person that your sister is now dating. I mean, you can't quite put your finger on it, but something is off. And you always know that anytime that you're going to have to spend the weekend with them or be in a meeting with them or have a family dinner with them, you are going to leave and you're going to feel drained.

(02:22):

You're going to feel slightly annoyed by simply having had to be around them. That's my weekend plans. Now, do you have that person in mind? Do you know how to deal with them? Do you know how to protect yourself from this kind of personality where it's always about them no matter what, they always bring it back to them. Well, that's what you and I are going to talk about today. And we're not just going to talk about this particular personality type. You are going to get a playbook of tactics, strategies, dos, and you're definitely getting the don'ts things to say things not to say so that the next time you're about to be with somebody who's literally all about themselves, you know exactly what to do. So YouTube, you love her, her, it's Dr. Ramani. And so let's jump to our studios in Boston where we tape this conversation. I'm just going to start firing them away. And there are some amazing questions here. 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (03:25):

So when we talk about narcissism, and it's something I've talked to you before, a carrot is not soup. A carrot is an ingredient in soup and inflated ego is just a part of the larger spectrum of narcissism, which also includes things like variable empathy, entitlement, arrogance, grandiosity, the need for admiration and validation, envying other people, the need for control, on and on and on and on. A person with an inflated ego, am I willing to take the bet that they're narcissistic? Sure, but I'm not sure I'm going to move all my chips to the middle of the table.

Mel Robbins (04:00):

One of the things that you said in the first episode that we did with you was you made a distinction between somebody who's annoying and that's someone with an inflated ego versus somebody who is narcissistic, who is harmful.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (04:13):

Yep. That's it. It's the harmful part. And I think that that's a key element because I think by definition, if a person really does have the whole constellation of stuff, you need to have to be narcissistic, inflated. Ego is definitely part of it, but there are people out there who have these big inflated egos, but they're actually kind of, these also can be very teddy. They almost sound like, I don't know, circusy people like I'm the best. I'm the greatest. Come here, give me hug. I think you're so great too. And they're actually very sweet and present. So that's why I'm saying you can't assume. Do they tend to go together? It's a bet, right? If I see inflated ego, am I willing to bet that this horse might be narcissistic? Sure.

Mel Robbins (04:53):

One thing I want to do to defend you is that this person had asked, are we mistaking personality traits with a clinical diagnosis? You've been very vocal in your work about saying this is a personality style and that people on the internet are diagnosing other people with narcissism. Correct? Correct. And the other thing to keep in mind is that the second that you click on a TikTok video or an Instagram reel that is about narcissism, you're going to see more of it. What you're here to say is that this is a personality style and that it is critical that you recognize the signs of it because it is a personality style that is maladaptive that hurts other people. And I learned that in the first episode we did with you that we will link to this one. 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (05:51):

This right here is the question of all survivors who are in a situation like this. Rageful narcissist, not a good parent child is scared of them. But then there is that big thing called family court. And the one thing the narcissistic person knows well is how to punish you. Now, once they figure out that messing with custody is going to destroy your soul, they're going all in. And most judges in this country will award 50% to the other parent if they ask for it, which is a lot of time spent away from the parent who's the healthier parent. And this is what people grapple with. And here's what's so challenging, Mel, and this is one of those cases where I'm not going to be able to give a good answer because you're at the crossroads where you either get the divorce, deal with the custody set up, know that there's times your child is alone with that parent that they're scared of or you stick it out.

(06:48):

Some parents get solace from knowing their presence, so at least they can run interference for that child with this toxic parent. They might wait until the child, they feels more able to autonomously make needs known. There is no right answer here. Some of this is going to come down to money. Are you going to be able to secure housing for you and your child and your children the way you want? Getting access to mental health for that child while before you ever make a decision on a divorce is crucial. I can promise you this. Once that marriage splits and you don't make the proper stipulations in the parenting agreement, that parent will stop therapy. I see this happen over and over again. They insist on two party consent for things like mental health services and then the narcissistic parent won't sign. It's back to court, back to court, back to court.

(07:40):

So get that child into therapy while you only need the signature of one parent because you're both still married. Get your ducks in line. Talk to a divorce attorney. Pay whatever they charge for an hour. Go in there prepared tax returns, whatever you need, and ask them, what am I looking at? What are the laws of this state? Because they're different in every state. What am I looking at with custody? What am I looking at with money? I think what the problem is is that too many people don't go into this conversation prepared marriage is a legal contract. Make no mistake. People read their rental car contracts more carefully than they understand exactly what the hell they're getting into when they marry someone. And so figure this out. Even if you're not going to get divorced for 10 years, getting that clear feedback from a divorce attorney makes a huge difference in your decision making. When I read a message like this, this is the first time somebody vocalizes that they're considering leaving. I know that they're on their way out. It may take five years, it may take eight years. They might even wait till that child's 18th birthday, which I cannot tell you how many people I know waited till midnight on their child's 18th birthday and then they started the process. By that next day, they had filed for divorce, no custody. I have to be honest with

Mel Robbins (08:53):

You, I really wish you going to say get out now.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (08:56):

No,

Mel Robbins (08:57):

Because

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (08:58):

Never.

Mel Robbins (08:58):

I know. I'm just being honest. Because you want a clear cut

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (09:04):

Answer and there's not one. The systems don't allow it. Mel Family Court is one of the most abusive systems in this country. There are people involved in court reform. The stuff they bring to me, I'm thinking this is not in the best interest of the child. If you get unlucky with a judge, you're

Mel Robbins (09:19):

Screwed. Well, and also I think all of us have some friend or family member that is watching a divorce play out a decade later, constantly going back into court because it's a way for somebody with a narcissistic personality style to continue punishing, to continue punishing and being in control.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (09:37):

It's called post-separation abuse. It's a formal thing, post-separation abuse post. They keep going and going and going. But I will say this and something I tell many, many parents, a mistake they make, I think too many people are like, hi, I'm going to fight for my child no matter what. And the narcissistic person grabs onto that and like, oh, is that your weak point? But if I remember once coach a woman and she wanted to play this whole mother lions thing, I'm like, slow it down. And instead when she was at, they were having one of these many hearings they'd go through, she said she was dying inside at the agreement that was coming down the pike. She said, okay, that's great. You know what? Actually these alternate weekends, this is going to work great for me because there are so many friends I've been wanting to connect with.

(10:26):

I've been wanting to get back into some of this. The hiking and climbing I was doing. Actually, I'm going to really use the weekends. Well, you know that fool. He is like, what? Yeah, no, no, don't think you're just going to No, no, wait, wait. And so when it got framed as she was totally cool headed, she said, totally fine. Get it. Actually, this is great. It is good to know this because I've been wanting to do this stuff and pursue this. So I'll be using that time Well, and I'm sure the kids will love spending time with you. And by the time the whole thing was done, 80 20 instead of the 50 50,

Mel Robbins (11:00):

Well, you are just hammering one message, strategy, strategy, strategy, acceptance, everything of what it is. You're never changing this. It's only going to get worse. You got to accept it. You got to be strategic. 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (11:34):

So setting boundaries with narcissistic people is akin to hugging a porcupine. It's really a bad idea and it's a fool's errand, right? I'm tired of people giving guidance to people like set boundaries. Wait, why aren't we supposed to? Not with narcissists, you set 'em with everybody else. But this is a pointless endeavor and all it does is create more friction in this kind of drama this person's having with their mother who is silent treatment and being sullen and all these other things. So this idea of setting boundaries with a narcissistic person, I always say it's an inside job and where if you say to them, I don't want you to talk about this, I don't want you to come this, you are basically inviting them to do that thing. They know they can mess with you. Alright? So unless you want to spend the remainder of your time on this planet getting into a power struggle with them, which I just said you cannot win.

(12:27):

Your better bet is to set an internal boundary, which is I now know that these topics are off limits. I know that if I invite this person to this event, this is going to happen. So I'm going to have to figure out an alternative. I know if I make a reservation with them for dinner, they're going to show up 25 minutes late. So I need to make a reservation at that place that seats us when we're not yet a complete party. Some people say, well, you're enabling the narcissist. You're actually not because there's no setting a boundary with them and you want to have the dinner and you may have to invite them, but at least you all can start eating. And when they come in and say, how dare you start with us? We said to come at seven, you didn't come at seven. They seeded us. We started eating. You set a boundary.

Mel Robbins (13:13):

I love that distinction because you're right when you say, I'm going to set a boundary with somebody who's narcissistic, it implies that you're going to tell 'em about it

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (13:21):

Versus

Mel Robbins (13:22):

You're just saying just understand the situation for what it is. Understand the person is not changing, recognize the patterns and set this boundary with yourself. For me, the one that I have in my life with a particular person is it's a three night limit.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (13:40):

That's right. That's exactly

Mel Robbins (13:41):

By day four,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (13:43):

This person gets prickly. So Mel, you would never say to that person, we have a three night limit. No. Oh my god, no. What a lot of people would say, well, if a person is saying things that offend you, you need to say that thing you're saying is offending me, tiger's cage. Try that with a narcissist. Call me up. Let me know how that works.

Mel Robbins (14:04):

And I also don't set the boundaries that are like, I don't talk about politics with you because you're an absolutely irrational freak that then dominates the conversation. If anybody asks a question or tries to offer a different point of view, I set a boundary with myself, I get up from the table, I don't engage.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (14:24):

That's right. That you don't engage

Mel Robbins (14:25):

Because I know exactly what's about to

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (14:27):

Happen. Exactly.

Mel Robbins (14:27):

I have no hope of it being different. I have accepted it. I set the boundary. I don't engage in this stuff. I remove myself.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (14:34):

That's a boundary. Not what this poor person unfortunately is trying to do the impossible with the mother and will be forever disappointed,

Mel Robbins (14:40):

Right? If you go, mom, let's not talk about you don't want to time about pal tape because you don't like that yet. We all know how that goes. Yep. Got it. Internal boundaries only. Everybody,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (14:49):

I said boundaries are an inside.

Mel Robbins (14:51):

I love that 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (15:00):

Okay, so first of all, let's always slow our role when we're using the word narcissism and teenager, okay? By definition, adolescence is a phase of life where the child is going through something called separation and individuation. Adolescents are tough. They are mean to their parents and often quite lovely with their peers, and there's a reason for that. The separation individuation process means that the peers are more of a meaningful social reference point. So they'll actually be lovely with their peers, listen to their problems, pick them up late at night, bring them soup when they're sick and scream at you. Who even dare mention emptying the dishwasher. And there's a common sort of therapist talk is that an adolescent is often going through a phase we call shitting the nest,

Mel Robbins (15:44):

Shitting the nest,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (15:44):

Shitting the nest. And if they shit the nest, then it's a lot easier for everyone to say, get out and for the kid to leave, this is gross. I don't want to be here. So all that mean behavior is sometimes part and parcel of shitting the nest. So we have to be able to figure out if it's that narcissism is a story that can be told beautifully backwards, but it's very difficult to tell forwards and in real time with an adolescent, for example, what I mean is show me a 30 5-year-old narcissist and I will show you someone who was horrible as a teenager. Show me someone who is horrible as a teenager. I don't know if they're going to be narcissistic when they're 35. Really the frontal lobes are continuing to develop a lot of that kind of lack of social awareness, impulsivity, all that's sitting up here, that part does not fully cement and set until around 25, 26, 27 years old. Adolescents really, if you want to look at it developmentally, it doesn't matter that they can drive and vote. And by alcohol, it really is. It goes until about 25, 26. That's when adulthood starts. So I'd say to people of narcissistic adolescents, white knuckle this a bit, have whatever limits you need in your household. Be realistic about them. Remember the concept of shitting the nest and put a pin in it for about eight years and then revisit. So let's just kind of

Mel Robbins (17:01):

Unpack this a little bit because I'm sure there's a ton of you that are listening right now that are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But what if I am seeing narcissistic traits? Yeah, probably because one of the things that you have, okay, well, let me just stop right there. You just said you probably are. What you're saying is that the very natural, normal and mentally healthy process of a teenager separating from their parents is for them to become more egotistical, more demonstrative, more selfish, and to prioritize more entitled, entitled. However, if you are seeing that and you are concerned, and maybe you're concerned because you're in a family system where grandparents are narcissistic or have an ex who is narcissistic. So you do have some concern, is there something that you can model that helps to keep somebody on a adaptive personality track versus spinning into more of a maladaptive? Or are you basically saying there's really not much you can do but white knuckle yourself? Or

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (18:08):

You want to be sure,

(18:10):

Figure out how your kids are behaving with their peers? Because if they have healthy peer relationships that seem reciprocal, that seem mutual, I mean it's harder as they get to adolescents on how they're getting along with their teachers, but they are still minors. So you can get those answers if other adults are having good experience. If you're a friend with a parent of a kid that they hang out with and that parent's like your kid's, great, then this is definitely the adolescent nonsense of shitting the nest, right? Because they're able to show up as solid people for other people. If however, they're behaving horribly across the board, mistreating peers having problems in school, then you're much more likely to be dealing with narcissism. Does that make sense?

Mel Robbins (18:52):

That makes a lot of sense. And is there anything if you're seeing that, that you can do? Or is this already just a bed that's

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (19:00):

Made? It's a tough one at that point. I think that it is not getting into a power struggle with them becomes crucial because if indeed you've got this difficult across the board, difficult with the teachers, difficult with you, difficult with peers, kind of kid difficult and they're part-time job, whatever, getting into a power struggle with them, you're going to lose it. You're not going to win because no one can win a power struggle with someone who's narcissistic and with an adolescent that's going to be even more amped up. They don't feel a sense of power because they're still living in your good graces and all of that. So don't get into a power struggle, okay? Don't basically don't let the dishwasher be the hill you die on because it's really not worth it. But it's because where narcissism is in adolescence, other bad behaviors are also likely to hang out, including things like substance use.

(19:51):

And so what you really do want to watch for is actually keep more of an eye on is your kids safe? How is their mental health functioning in other areas? If you are able to encourage therapy, that kid's probably going to say, no, it's worth a shot. Definitely figure out what it is that does speak to them and cultivate their interest in that. Because if there's something that they like, maybe it's music, maybe it's a form of sport, maybe whatever it is, show some interest in what they do because we can get so caught up in the power struggle of you're going to empty the dishwasher if it's the last thing you do versus who is this kind of difficult kid of mine. But we get so caught up in the difficult of it all, we don't pay attention to what do they like. So you might see them playing a video game instead of like, oh, these kids in their video games. You never emp empty the dishwasher. All you do is play the video game. It's like, what's this game about? Talk to me about. I'm just curious. Now you probably get a lot of me, me, but you never know.

Mel Robbins (20:48):

Well, I think it gets in there. I think you pull a chair up and you just sit next to them and you just sit by them while they're playing the video game. And even just doing that shows a level of interest. And so I love that advice. 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (21:13):

So now we get into philosophy. What is love? Is there a universal definition? And the problem is no, there's not. I think probably the most powerful thing people could do by their third date. You know how you go to the doctor, they make you sign the informed consent?

Mel Robbins (21:28):

Yes,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (21:28):

I wish we had that for love. Say put your piece of paper in front of someone. This is my definition of love because their definition of love is very transactional and they're not aware of what their definition of love, their definition of love is. Basically I'm going to swallow you up whole. You're going to be, for me, it's a very romantic, passionate definition of love. What they're not good at is long-term companionate love. So this idea of true love with all the depth that's implied, the mutuality, the reciprocity, the better or worse, the standing at someone's side, even when they get older or need care or need help or are starting to get more successful than you. All the things that would throw a narcissistic person off. I would say the short answer to that question is probably not on the basis of what we consider healthy love to be. Theirs is a much, much more shallow, shallow definition for them. Love is very romantic, very passionate, very flash in the pan, very crush. That's what it is. It's not the deep, deep stuff. It's

Mel Robbins (22:35):

Not give and take is what I've learned

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (22:37):

From you. It's not only not give and take. It's not good times and bad, and it's also very status conscious and appearance conscious. This is why you see again when a person who has been through a 30 year marriage with kids then trades in for a 27-year-old partner and they're 60, what exactly are they talking? Are they talking about if y'all didn't watch the same shows in high school, you got nothing to talk about

Mel Robbins (23:03):

Based on everything that you've taught us and that I've learned from your work. When I read between the lines of this question, which I probably shouldn't, is there any way for a narcissist to find true love? I imagine somebody who is holding out hope that there could be a

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (23:22):

Possibility or fear or fear that the narcissist will go on and find true love with someone new. That's the big fear of people who are left. So the narcissistic person, you're with someone, right? Yeah. Narcissistic person leaves. They find new supply right away immediately. And you're of course going through a real grief process, so you're struggling with it. The big fear is now they found their new person. Are they going to change for the new person? Are they going to be better for the new person? Are they going to find true love for the new person? That's how I read that question. And the answer to that's no. I watched someone go through this a couple years ago, had a very up and down narcissistic relationship with someone, went on for years, yada, yada, yada. And then they break up and inside of a few months he meets someone new soulmate, soulmate, soulmate, bing, bing, bing, alarm signs.

(24:09):

And they get engaged in like two months and the person was still struggling, was having trouble meeting people and was just sort of having a dark night of the soul. And this person seems like they moved on and it was of little solace to this person who was sort of left that this is not and there's no depth. This is all performative for narcissistic people. Love is performative. And this is where the social media has changed things, right? Because the performative love relationship is very much a staple of Instagram. Look how happy we are. Look how cute we are. We are Van Lifeing. We're traveling. We are so great in love. My lovey bear, lovey, never in my life could there be a hero. You are my love hero. And then these fools break up in three months. Nobody goes from love hero to broken up. This whole thing was a lie. So again, every therapist knows, the more they gush about the relationship on social media, the more it's a train wreck. And so it's performative.