Episode: 189

Secret Service Agent Explains Psychological Tricks to Read Anyone & Spot a Liar

with Evy Poumpouras

Be more influential and get what you want.

Evy Poumpouras, a former secret service agent who has protected 5 U.S. presidents, shares proven strategies from her 30 years of experience..

Evy is a “human lie detector” who has been specially trained in the art of lie detection, human behavior, and cognitive influence.

She is giving you a masterclass of all of her best secrets from how to detect lies, influence behavior, and use psychological tricks to become a stronger negotiator and communicator.

Listen on:

People don’t tell you who they are. They show you. Your job is to observe, not react.

Evy Poumpouras

Featured Clips

Transcript

Mel Robbins (00:00:00):

You served on this elite polygraph unit for the Secret Service. You were trained to be a human lie detector.

Evy Poumpouras (00:00:08):

They call 'em examiners. I was like, Nope, nope, nope. Don't want it. I didn't take a single criminal justice class Zero. I mean, that

Mel Robbins (00:00:16):

Right there proves that anybody can learn anything. As somebody's sitting there and you're going through a polygraph exam, you've got colleagues that are watching you. What are the list of things that you're assessing?

Evy Poumpouras (00:00:28):

We'll do an example. Hi Mel. I'm Evie. Good to meet you. Where are you from? Where were you born? What's your date of birth? As you're answering these, you're looking at me, you're nodding your head up and down. Okay, I got Mel's baseline. Tell me about what happened on the night of March 15th, 1998.

Mel Robbins (00:00:45):

I'll tell you what, sitting here right now, I feel like I'm in an investigation and I'm about to get my ass thrown in jail. Were you ever in a moment where you were truly tested?

Evy Poumpouras (00:00:54):

I remember pointing my weapon out and actually pointing it at him, and it was close to his head. And I'm thinking, am I going to shoot this guy?

Mel Robbins (00:01:00):

Did you shoot him? Hey, it's your friend Mel, and I'm so glad that you're here with me today so that you and I can spend some time together. It is always an honor to be able to be with you, and I just want to acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something today that could help you create a more meaningful life. And if you're a new listener, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I am so glad that you're here and you're going to be glad that you tuned in to listen to this episode because you're going to be learning from a fascinating person today with such a unique life experience. Who has so much to teach you? Evie Pomp is a former special agent with the US Secret Service who has served during the presidential administrations of President Bill Clinton, president George W. Bush, and President Barack Obama.

(00:01:50):

She has also served on the Secret Service details, protecting former presidents, George HW Bush and Gerald Ford. Her extensive and decorated career includes operating undercover complex criminal investigations. She was an interrogator for the Secret Services Elite polygraph unit, which means she has been specifically trained in the art of lie detection, human behavior, and cognitive influence. She's also a bestselling author and professor of criminal Justice. You might even recognize Evie, because when criminal cases grab the world's attention or breaking news makes us all wonder who's telling the truth. Every single news network on the planet has Evie on speed dial to analyze body language and critical verbal cues that suspects politicians and celebrities are sending so that you can tell when someone's lying. It's a real honor to have Evie here because Evie has received the United States Secret Service Valor Award for actions as a first responder during the nine 11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center in New York City, and I'm so excited and grateful that she has made the trip to our studios here in Boston to give you a masterclass from over three decades of decoding body language for some of the most elite law enforcement agencies in the United States.

(00:03:14):

I am so glad that you're here.

Evy Poumpouras (00:03:17):

Thank you, Mel. Me too.

Mel Robbins (00:03:18):

I have been admiring you from afar and online like a stalker that the Secret Service would take out. I'm so glad to be sitting here with you.

Evy Poumpouras (00:03:28):

I'm very humbled, very humbled. Thank you for saying that.

Mel Robbins (00:03:31):

Here's where I want to start. Could you tell the person that is listening to us right now, how does learning some of the skills that you're going to talk about knowing when somebody's lying to you or displaying confidence, how does that change your life?

Evy Poumpouras (00:03:48):

All these things, confidence, reading people, it makes you steady. It makes you grounded. So I think that that's where a lot of this is going to lead people to. A lot of the stuff I share are things that were taught to me by very exceptional people that helped me on my path and still help me to this day.

Mel Robbins (00:04:07):

You have a remarkable career. So when you were a little girl, were you like, I want to be in the Secret Service? How did you even get into this career?

Evy Poumpouras (00:04:14):

No, no, no. I get pulled over by cops. I'm like, who's this bozo? Literally in my head, I may have even verbalized it. Nope. Didn't know anything about law enforcement. My family was not in it at all. I wish I could say actually, I don't wish I could say. I know sometimes people have a plan. I never had a plan. I went to college like everybody else. I did while I was in college. I interned for a congresswoman, congresswoman, Carolyn McCarthy. I remember her very well. And even that I would've never thought I'd interned for a congresswoman. It was just like a bulletin board thing and I sent my name in and through that I was really exposed to government and I always had this kind of, I want to help people. I want to do right in the world. I think my compass has always been purpose, but honestly, completely just by mistake, honestly, I was on the subway, I'm going downtown Manhattan to a job that I got right out of college.

(00:05:06):

It was underwriting for A IGI don't know if they're still out there. If you are, I'm sorry, but not for me. I was in a cubicle sitting there and I'm thinking, I'm like, I can't do this. And so the subway doors open, literally, maybe I'm on that job several weeks, two months subway doors open, cops hanging out his beer belly because back then they had beer bellies. I see the guy. I'm like, I can do that, literally. And so I go home that night, two and two recruit, I call. I'm like, hello, you guys hiring? No clue what I was doing. Zero. And I just went with it. So one thing, I've never been afraid to just go and figure it out. That's how my journey started. And from there I was like, oh, maybe I could do F-B-I-D-E-A-C-A-A. I actually applied to all of them. Secret Service was the one who hired me first.

Mel Robbins (00:05:57):

What I find fascinating about that story is that everybody who doesn't feel like they're in the right place in their life thinks that you're supposed to know what you want. And oftentimes I find it's all, it's just knowing what you don't want and you knew I don't want to be in that cubicle. And I love the metaphor of the doors opening because I think your life can change like that. Oh my

Evy Poumpouras (00:06:20):

God, I didn't even think of that. With the doors opening

Mel Robbins (00:06:25):

And you walked through it, and I would imagine that what you would see over and over and over again, both in your training for the Secret Service and as you were an agent working on some of these elite units in the Secret Service, that things do change in an instant, which is why it is so important to take everything that you're about to teach us today to heart.

Mel Robbins (00:06:50):

What are some of the big takeaways that you have that are important when it comes to the way that a US president or somebody at that level of success and power thinks and acts?

Evy Poumpouras (00:07:04):

So I was very lucky because, so I was around three current sitting presidents. I started when Clinton was actually still president, but then you're also around the former presidents. So you get dished out to help with those. And then also foreign heads of state. So when foreign heads of state come to the us, you're around them. So if you think about it, you're going to school in a sense. You don't realize it, but you're actually learning because learning theory, you become what you're around. And so as I was around them, you would watch the way they would move, the way they would deal with problems, the way they would deal with people. I think probably the most remarkable thing I would see is, I mean, you'd be with the president, whichever one it would be, and we'd be literally in the White House and they'd have screens in different areas and you'd be standing there and he'd be right there and there'd be a screen up of the news and they'd be just be destroying him.

(00:08:00):

He's an idiot. He's this, he's that. Whichever channel it was, depending on whatever president was, because it changed, he'd be right there. And most human beings, most of us would be like, oh my God, I can't believe they're saying this about me. I can't get out of bed. And that could not fly. So I really learned resilience and I learned not to take things personally. Absolutely. I think that's probably the best gift. I think people today, and a lot of times when people approach me, they're like, they'll tell me stories. And it's not to invalidate what they say. They really go through it. And I'm like, everything can't penetrate your soul. It just can't. And I learned to understand what mental armor is and to understand what you can and can't allow in, and then also understand the dynamics of some situations. So resilience is key.

(00:08:51):

I never saw you as president, me personally, lose it, break down, get into the fetal position, none of it. They always held their grace. And so I learned, the second thing I learned is to lose. Well have class when you're losing, have class. And then I also learned less is more. And listen, pay attention. The other thing I also learned is ask, and maybe I learned this from the Secret Service too, but ask for help. The president is not expected to know everything. And I think we think I have to know everything because if I don't know everything, then I'm not smart. I lack confidence. People see through me, yada, yada. And what I learned is they're very good at delegating. I don't know everything, but you are the Secretary of Defense. So you tell me how many men I need and what weapons we should be sending. You're the Secretary of Treasury, then you advise me on the currency, inflation and all that. So I also learned that. I learned that I didn't have to know everything, but I learned that you have to be a good manager and delegate and ask for help. It's not a weakness.

Mel Robbins (00:09:59):

I personally just imagine what life as a secret service agent must be like. And I'm sure as you're listening to Evie, you're also conjuring up these images. It sounds extraordinarily stressful.

Mel Robbins (00:10:15):

How do you manage your stress? Because I would imagine that you're kind of in a constant state of stress when you're in this kind of high pressure job.

Evy Poumpouras (00:10:23):

Are there scary situations? Sure. But you prepare so much to put yourself in these situations, but you also make peace. There's an understanding that something could go wrong today. Something could happen anytime you got into the follow-up, which is the vehicle that was behind the president's limo, and you would armor up and you would have your weapons. I think those were very vulnerable situations where somebody could attack the motorcade. So the motorcade, whenever it was in movement, that was where it's the most vulnerable. So anytime you're moving, you're the most vulnerable. So I think those points were kind of like you have those moments where you're like, all right, everything's okay. And whenever something was wheels up, meaning your protectee was up in the air, you were kind of like, okay. He didn't die on my watch. There was always that psychological thing that I don't want to mess up. I don't want to make them a wrong mistake. I don't want to make the wrong call and then have somebody else's life on my shoulders.

Mel Robbins (00:11:27):

Did you have any techniques that you used? You're sitting in the follow car, you're armored up, you got your weapons in your hands. You're like, this is my watch. Don't let anything happen. Don't let anything happen. Don't let, because I would imagine you would just be on high alert the entire time, ready to go. How the hell did you keep yourself common centered when you're in that situation?

Evy Poumpouras (00:11:50):

Because in a truck with dudes who make terrible jokes, they would just make the dumbest stupid jokes like, Hey, Papa Oles, you couldn't even say my last name. I'm like, it's Pam Per, yeah, whatever. We would laugh. You had to laugh. Everything can't be so heavy. If it's heavy, you are just not going to make it. So I mean, they would make terrible jokes. I'm not fucking funny at all, Mel. So I would listen to them and if I tried to say something, shut up Papa Olis, make sure we don't get shot at or whatever. So I was around people who carried themselves well, and so I carried myself. Well, I learned from that. They're steady. I'm steady. It's humor and lightness to create the calm and ground. But at the same time, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking. And then there were times where you couldn't joke around where you were in a movement or something and you really just had to be present.

(00:12:40):

And I think maybe that job and certain intense activities we do, when you're fully present, you don't have time for your mind to wander. Sometimes afterward you're like, oh man, that was heavy. But in that moment, you find your ways. But also Mel, they've put you in really bad situations in training. They don't just put you out in the world. Hey, let's see how she's going to do. They really try to stress you out in training repeatedly to see how you're going to react. And even then, you don't know how somebody's going to perform in a real life situation. There's times like the person you would expect to just fly through something completely falls apart, and then someone else who you think like, ah, she's going to be a mess. Hold her ground. So you don't know what people are made of until they're truly tested.

Mel Robbins (00:13:32):

Were you ever in a moment where you were truly tested?

Evy Poumpouras (00:13:35):

I remember once we were arresting this guy, it was one of my first ones. I think it was the first time I ever pulled out my weapon. That was stressful. We were fighting with him, we were trying to arrest him. My partner's trying to put cuffs on him, he's fighting with us, we're wrestling. And then I remember pulling my weapon out and actually pointing it at him, and it was close to his head. And I'm thinking, I'm like, am I going to shoot this guy? I think that's probably the worst feeling because although you're trained to do something like that, you're still looking at another person and saying, once I do this, am I going to be okay? So I think things like that were really hard.

Mel Robbins (00:14:13):

Did you shoot him?

Evy Poumpouras (00:14:14):

No. No. You know what? I never had to shoot anybody. I was very lucky. In fact, I remember going to the police academy when I was in the NYPD, Sergeant Corrigan. He taught us police signs. He got up there and he said, if you never have to discharge your weapon by my account, you had a great career. Because it's not about force. Anytime you force somebody to do something, you can win in the short term, but in the long term, you always lose.

Mel Robbins (00:14:44):

I think that's true everywhere in life and everywhere.

Evy Poumpouras (00:14:47):

Everywhere.

Mel Robbins (00:14:49):

I would love to learn more about how you were trained to be a human lie detector. You served on this elite polygraph unit for the Secret service and you went through training to truly understand whether or not somebody is lying to pick up on body language behavioral clues.

Mel Robbins (00:15:11):

Can you tell us a little bit about the training and what you learned in terms of detecting whether or not people are lying?

Evy Poumpouras (00:15:17):

Yes. Well, I didn't want to do it because in the service there was only 30. They call 'em examiners and it was a massive load because they went to you when they had really hard cases. So the responsibility was heavy. And so not only are you doing a polygraph and interviewing, then they're all watching through the class and you're thinking, man, what if I don't get anything? What if I don't deliver? So I was like, Nope, nope, nope, don't want it. And I truly, I thought nobody would talk to me. I thought I would not be good at it. And I remember, I think it was called the bid where it's like positions open, put in your name. And it was open for two weeks and I waited until 15 or 30 minutes before closed on a Friday, 5, 4 40 5:00 PM before I put my name in.

(00:16:05):

And for sure I was like, I'm never getting this. And when I got it, I remember having a ex squeeze me, like me. There were guys with military experience, more senior people who put in and they didn't get it. And so I was really surprised when I got it. It's just a load. But so when you go through that, the selection process, then they send you to, it's called the Department of Defense, polygraph Institute. It's a military facility. Actually it's a Fort Jackson. I know they changed the name now they call it naca. But you are there and you go through schooling, biology, psychology, like graduate level courses, and you'll do biology in a week and a half and you have to take a midterm and final. It was intense. I remember first when I first went, I thought they're like, here, read this textbook in biology and then next week you have a test on it.

(00:16:58):

I was like, these dudes are lying. It's going to be open book for sure. There's no way they expect me to memorize this textbook. And then sure as shit, I go in the next week and I'm like, this is not open book. And they're like, no, what did you think you were doing here? So that part was hard. We had pharmacists coming in to teach us, which I thought was really cool because especially when people are under the influence of drugs, which a lot of the people I would have to interview would be, they were not always of sound, mind and body because of the element of crime and whatnot. So I had to learn what drugs did, what things to people. And so I became this expert in pharmaceutical drugs. So that was pretty amazing. And then they teach you the body, they teach you language, they teach you verbal language.

(00:17:50):

They teach you also how to, I don't want to say confront, but how to deal with lies, how to confront someone, how to deal with people who disrespect you in the room. I also learned too, because sometimes you deal with people who are going through who have been through trauma, and sometimes you would have to, they would call it like you would have to open up that scar, get what you need, but then it was also your responsibility to close that scar before they had left the room. So there was just so many elements with that. And then the service also wanted me, they encouraged me to get my master's in psychology, forensic psychology as well. So I think all those things together help me understand people and human behavior.

Mel Robbins (00:18:35):

So before we get into the strategies and tactics, can you explain why does body language matter when it comes to whether or not somebody is lying to you?

Evy Poumpouras (00:18:44):

Look, it does and it doesn't. The research goes back and forth. A lot of researchers will be like, body language is BS when it comes to detecting deception. It's true. And it's not true. Here's what I know. People give off cues, so I'm hanging out with you. We met before. I'm paying attention to Mel, how she walks, how she hugs me. You hugged me so I get a baseline on you. I start to, in the few minutes I get to know Mel, I get her baseline.

Mel Robbins (00:19:14):

And what are you looking for when you're assessing a baseline? Anybody could use this. You could use this on a first date. You could use this in a business

Evy Poumpouras (00:19:21):

Meeting she use everywhere.

Mel Robbins (00:19:23):

Okay, great. So let's start with a scenario where you're walking in and you're about to meet somebody, and I want to just get a baseline. What are the data points I'm kind of looking for if I want to size somebody up.

Evy Poumpouras (00:19:35):

Okay, so I'm not sizing you up, but I'm going to use Mel because Mel, Mel, we're using Mel. So when I walk in, Mel, immediately you come over, you're open. So

(00:19:46):

You open. You weren't holding anything in your arms, you didn't have your arms crossed. You were very open and welcoming. So immediately you see me even, you know what else you didn't do? You didn't try to be busy in a corner somewhere and let your pierce come over to greet me first. Emily met me at the elevators, but that was it. As soon as I walked in, actually you came right away, Evie. So it's not like your team started handling me. So to me, right away I'm like, she's very comfortable, she's very confident, she's very warm and welcoming. Immediately I'm like, I like her. But you feel people, do you not? Do you not feel people's vibration too, the essence of what they give off?

Mel Robbins (00:20:22):

I think that's a hundred percent right. And what's interesting about you reflecting back on just that literally 10 seconds, was that today I'm exhausted. We've been hosting my parents, we've got all kinds of stuff going on. I'm more tired than normal. I was up late talking to my daughter in Los Angeles who's going through a really rough thing right now. And so I am happy to hear that I just instinctually walked over to you and that the experience for you was that I was open, I was warm because I know that's who I am. But I didn't think about how I would greet you. It's interesting to hear how many data points you had in that short interaction. And also it is true. I think we walk in and you feel the energy of someone, and if it's warm and inviting, you're immediately at ease. But if somebody is a little stiff or crossed arms or formal or tense, then you start to go, oh my God, something's wrong with me. I think we reflect it back on ourselves

Evy Poumpouras (00:21:31):

Versus what's going, what's wrong with me? Yes.

Mel Robbins (00:21:33):

So what should we do instead?

Evy Poumpouras (00:21:35):

I think quiet and just, so here, you're going to absorb people. And I'm not talking about empathy where you take everybody's stuff on and then you feel like garbage later. That's not what I'm talking about. But when I say absorb, I mean feel people's energy. People give stuff off. It's a real thing. It's a legit thing. Feel it. Number one. The two is body language. So your body language, your open, your arms were open, they were out. They weren't in your pockets. Your body language communicated what your words communicated. They were in harmony. So what you said to me, Evie, I'm so happy you're here. Thank you so much. I'm so excited. That mirrored what your body did. So right in that moment, I'm like, it's all genuine. It's not a formality. I'm not another guest. Like, Hey, okay, alright, get her in there. And you immediately stepped forward where maybe your team could have taken me, brought me in here, and you could have made your interest. Evie, hi, I'm Mel, how are you? Some people do that,

Mel Robbins (00:22:35):

Right?

Evy Poumpouras (00:22:35):

You did none of that.

Mel Robbins (00:22:38):

So when somebody gives you either weird energy or they are kind of open, but body language is off and you're reading something's off, pay attention to it

Evy Poumpouras (00:22:48):

First. Don't make it about you,

Mel Robbins (00:22:50):

Okay?

Evy Poumpouras (00:22:51):

Because that's when we're like, they don't like me, they don't this, they don't that. And that's where you start going down that rabbit hole.

Mel Robbins (00:22:55):

Yes.

Evy Poumpouras (00:22:56):

And then that's like, it's good to be maybe self-reflective but not so self-focused because then we start to make everything about us. And sometimes most of the time, nothing to do with us. So allow people to be and look at them, listen to them. How are you today? You can ask simple questions. Tell me about your morning. How's everything going, Mel? And then people can reveal slowly, you know what? I really had a tough morning. Or Oh, this is going on. I was up late. And then now what's going on with that person? So we want to see if people are off harmony, meaning what you're saying and what you're showing me with your body. And then also what I feel from you is not in harmony. I just have to pay attention. And we don't call people out ever.

Mel Robbins (00:23:43):

I mean as in that's a rule. Don't call somebody else

Evy Poumpouras (00:23:45):

Like, Hey, you see, I just want to be careful because sometimes we think I know all this body language stuff and I'm going to call everybody out and be like, oh, you just did this or you said this and I know when you say this or when you look away, you just looked away. And that must mean it's like those cues are there for you to gather information, not for you to reflect back to someone and be like, let me show you how much I'm paying attention to you and how smart I am. So despite me having this background, I never tell people what I see. I told you, you asked me, but I don't tell people. You want to make people feel uncomfortable. Tell them. You want to make people feel like you're analyzing them. Tell them you want to make people feel that you think you're better than them. Tell them we don't need to do that. It's for you to understand the people around you and who you're dealing with so you can make smarter decisions with people. That's what this is for. Does that make sense?

Mel Robbins (00:24:42):

It makes a lot of sense. And what I'm gathering so far is that there is all this power in settling yourself and observing and in letting people show you and not reacting. And you said something really important. You're meeting somebody for the first time. You're in a situation where you're on a date or you're meeting your significant other's parents for the first time, or you're going on an interview or whatever you're pitching a client, interviewing a babysitter, the baseline and just giving yourself permission to observe, to get data and not read anything weird as if it has to do with you is a power move. And I think a big mistake a lot of us make is that when somebody else is off, we let it make us get off. And what you're saying is absolutely not just observe, keep being in the mode. Pretend you're like, it's almost like, because I think of about a secret service agent and I think about dark suits, sunglasses in the corner seen maybe definitely not hurt.

(00:25:45):

And so there's a cool confidence that comes from doing this in your life. Are there any cues though that for you over the years became kind of a telltale, like something with people's eyes?

Mel Robbins (00:25:58):

I had always heard, for example, that if people look away, they're lying to you. Which of course made me go, wait a minute, I have a D, H, D. A lot of times I will look away, gather my thoughts, come back. I also think it can be really disarming for people if you're staring right at 'em, like a prosecutor or an attorney cross-examining somebody. But are there telltale signs with the eyes?

Evy Poumpouras (00:26:19):

So that sounds like such bs, the whole I thing. I know it's a marketing thing. Think of it this way. How can everybody do the same exact thing with their eyes? If we are preaching diversity and we're also different and we're also unique, then how on earth is everybody going to behave the same way? So here's the thing with eye contact. How a person does eye contact depends on that person. I could have grown up shy, I could have grown up being told I was stupid. I could have grown up being hit a lot. So how I'm going to look at someone is going to be kind of a marker of everything I've experienced in my life.

(00:27:02):

That's why that doesn't make sense. I could have a DHD or autism. There could be so many reasons. So the thing with eye contact is there's two parts. One part is when you're looking at people, let people be. Sometimes you ever have a serious conversation maybe with your kids and you're trying to talk to them and they're doing this on you and you're like, look at me when I talk to you. You want to try to refrain from doing that because that's just them releasing stress, releasing energy. You're also getting a really good baseline on what they do when they're stressed out. Yes. Now when you want to teach them, hey, when you talk to people, I want you to have good eye contact because it conveys trust, it conveys authority. That's different. So we're talking two different lanes. One lane is reading People just let people be. Don't correct them. Let them go where they're going to go. They'll show you. So before you asked me a question before we started, what did you ask me, Mel? You asked me what am I excited about, right? Yeah. And I had nothing, but I broke eye contact with you and I looked down because you know what I was doing? I was searching my mental Rolodex and I'm like, do I? But I had to break eye contact to do that so I could really go into my head. I'm not about to lie to you. That's just what I do.

(00:28:18):

So that's reading people

(00:28:20):

Now eye contact when it comes to you right now, I'm your guest. So even though I would presume that maybe eye contact is hard for you, but you're like EV's my guest, I want her to know I'm here and I'm present. So I'm going to do everything I can to keep eye contact. It shows I value her, it shows I'm here, that I'm present. That's separate. And so eye contact for you as an individual. If you're going out there for an interview or a meeting and you're really trying to build trust, eye contact, hands down, builds trust. It's just we're wired that way. If you're looking at me, it means that I can trust you. So those are two things. Reading people, we leave them alone, but we pay attention to what they do. So now every time I ask ev a question where she has to think about something, it's likely she's going to do what? Break eye contact. She's searching her mental Rolodex. That's just what she does. But when it comes to how I show up, I'm going to be here. I'm going to be present. I'm going to look at you. I'm going to show you Mel, you matter to me, Mel, you can trust me because I'm going to look at you. And it's also a great way to show respect to people.

Mel Robbins (00:29:27):

On the topic of reading someone, what are the list of things that you're assessing?

Evy Poumpouras (00:29:34):

It's such a hard thing to answer. So look, there's body language overall. Just look at what they're doing with their body. Simple things. Even how when they're talking to you, are they frontally aligned? So we're frontally aligned right

Mel Robbins (00:29:50):

Now, meaning we're squared off against each other.

Evy Poumpouras (00:29:53):

Yes. Okay, frontally aligned, shoulder to shoulder. That's a good way when you talk to someone to have that, you don't want to talk to people like this or like this or like that on our phone,

Mel Robbins (00:30:04):

Which basically signals I'm either not interested or I'm nervous or I'm thinking about something else.

Evy Poumpouras (00:30:09):

It's just when it matters to you, when those conversations matter, you really want to be deliberate with your body language. You want to show with your body to people what you're saying. That those things need to be in harmony. And for me, I really don't care what people say. I look at what they do. And so that's the other follow-up. That's actions, that's separate. But with the body you want to have, if it's your reading people, you just want to look at what they do with their body. You get their baseline. You can get somebody's baseline in just a couple of minutes. You can see do they like to have their arms crossed? If I could stand all day long with my arms crossed, I would. That's I'm comfortable, but I don't do it because psychologically understand it gives off the wrong energy or vibe.

Mel Robbins (00:30:54):

And as you're talking, I just want, what's interesting is that you have this ability to both go, okay, as I'm observing someone else, these are the things I look for. To get a baseline and assess what kind of person this is. What is the energy? What is their emotion? Is this somebody whose energy is trustworthy? Is it not? Are they sketchy? What's going on with that person? And the same exact things that would signal, I don't know if I can trust this person.

Evy Poumpouras (00:31:26):

Did you do the same thing to you?

Mel Robbins (00:31:27):

Yes. And also are the same things that you should not be doing if you want to display confidence. Yes. So it's almost sort of common sense if somebody's not looking you in the eye or their body is pointed toward the door as you're trying to have a serious conversation.

Evy Poumpouras (00:31:41):

That's called a fleeing position, by the way.

Mel Robbins (00:31:42):

That's called a who.

Evy Poumpouras (00:31:43):

Fleeing position. Aing position. When you're speaking to someone and they're leaning. So right now the door is here to my left.

Mel Robbins (00:31:49):

Yes,

Evy Poumpouras (00:31:50):

We are doing the interview, Mel, and I'm like this the whole time, and I'm just sitting at the edge like this. Hell, I'm like, everybody doesn't want to be here. It's called a fleeing position. When I would interview suspects, a lot of them would sit in the fleeing position. They just wanted to leave. Their body literally was showing me, I don't want to be here. That's fleeing position.

Mel Robbins (00:32:09):

Well, if you've ever talked to a kid and they're in trouble and you're sitting at the island in the kitchen, fleeing position. Fleeing position, absolutely. So it's kind of common sense almost that the things that you do when you're not interested or when you're lying or when you're done with a conversation, somebody that's not that interested in you or might be covering something up, is probably doing to you.

Evy Poumpouras (00:32:31):

They are doing. And I think what you said is important because everyone's so fixated on them. And how are people treating me and what are they doing to me? And we don't pause to think, yeah, hello, you're the other half of the equation. Did you pause to think how you're presenting yourself? Because it's a reaction and you have to think thoughtfully, what am I doing and what are they seeing? How am I showing up for this person? But we sometimes become a bit more very egocentric. We think we're the sun. And then everybody revolves around us and pause and think, how are you showing up? How are you speaking? Are you present? Are you looking at them? Are you doing these things?

Evy Poumpouras (00:33:15):

And even if you are and they're not reciprocating what you think they should do, leave people alone. Let people be.

Mel Robbins (00:33:25):

Why?

Evy Poumpouras (00:33:27):

Because if I want to have an authentic conversation with you, Mel, I'm going to let you do Mel so that I can really see who you really are.

Mel Robbins (00:33:38):

So it's a theory almost that if you center yourself and you're in a place with people where you show up aligned with your best intentions and you're observing and you're creating this space for someone else to be and operate how they're going to be and operate in that moment, people's behavior reveals the truth.

Evy Poumpouras (00:34:02):

You don't have to work so hard when you just let people show you. I remember once when I first got into this business, I left the US Secret Service and I went to meet with somebody from a management company. I was going to get up, I was looking at managers and I took my husband who was another interrogator and government person like myself, and I'm like, come with me and we're in la. We sit down and within three seconds, he and I, we instinctually knew. I'm like, this dude could care less that we're in this room. He, he's in this room because somebody asked him to meet with us and he did it as a favor. So we ended that interview really quickly. I knew right away I'm like, this guy could care. He's not even remotely interested in representing me. So at that moment, I didn't make it about me. My feelings didn't get hurt. He called it, it was a favor, called in by somebody who knew me. I thought he wanted to meet me. He clearly showed me he didn't. I end the conversation sooner rather than later, and I leave and I don't waste my time trying to make the relationship work, trying to follow up with an email he showed me. He also showed me he's not going to work hard for me.

(00:35:11):

He showed me that. I'm like, if you're this excited about me now forget about it later. Let's say even he's like, fine, I'll do it. Was my entertainment attorney at the time. I will do your entertainment attorney a favor and I'll take on as a client. No, I don't want you. You just showed me what it's going to be like working with you.

Mel Robbins (00:35:29):

This is brilliant because we are all in the mode of chasing that. I got to prove to you that I'm worthy of your time. No confidence and being able to get a baseline is observing whether or not somebody else is worth your time, whether or not they're displaying interest. I want to go to the situation where you may be administering a polygraph. Your job is to make sure, well, your job is to kind of get the truth. As somebody's sitting there and you're going through a polygraph exam, you've got colleagues that are watching. You have the steely confidence where you're administering the test.

Mel Robbins (00:36:12):

Are there specific things that people do with their eyes though that do indicate that their words might not match the truth? Like signaling that happens?

Evy Poumpouras (00:36:25):

We'll do an example.

Mel Robbins (00:36:26):

Okay,

Evy Poumpouras (00:36:27):

So I'm sitting here, I'm interviewing you, Mel, right? So I'm like, hi, Mel, I'm Evie, good to meet you. So one of the things I might do is, Mel, where are you from? Where were you born? What's your date of birth? Okay, what's your address? So you answer these questions. So as you're answering these, you're looking at me, you're nodding your head up and down. Okay, I got Mel's baseline.

(00:36:49):

So Mel, tell me about what happened on the night of March 15th, 1998. Now I watch what Mel does. Now you're likely going to shift a little bit because I just asked you to do what now, recall something from the past. So in that moment, I'm going to watch what does Mel do when she's accessing her memory? That's one.

Mel Robbins (00:37:14):

Okay,

Evy Poumpouras (00:37:14):

So I'm collecting information. So I've got who, Mel is the beginning part when she's not threatened, name, date of birth, blah, blah, blah, right? Unless you're lying, of course, which happens. Then it's like I'm getting you to access a memory. Then I might ask you, how do you feel about being here today? Are you doing all right? Is there something I can get you? So then I'm going to get a baseline on how Mel reacts or what you show me when you're emotional, you might start crying, you might be angry, you might frustration. Mel, tell me what you know about this case. Mel, tell me what you think happened.

Mel Robbins (00:37:47):

I'll tell you what, sitting here right now, I feel like I'm in an investigation and I'm about to get my ass thrown in jail. You have a steal. Have you always been this scary in this confidence? I mean, you have death stare with your, because you were just like, I got my paper. It is amazing to be in the presence of somebody who is emotionally settled because it makes me nervous about the fact that I might not be.

Evy Poumpouras (00:38:19):

That's good.

Mel Robbins (00:38:20):

What do you mean? That's good.

Evy Poumpouras (00:38:21):

That's good though, to some degree, right? You want to be steady enough to, here's the thing, we want to be warm towards people, right? You want warmth, but you also want people to, you want to keep people on point from time to time. Because when we get taken advantage of, we get betrayed, we get rolled. It's a dance. So yeah, do I want people from time to time to be like, Ooh, I don't want to cross every, I don't want to mess with every, I don't want to harm every because you want to give that off. Because that's also a way to let people know I'm not that person. That's a good thing. So it's finding a way to be both.

Mel Robbins (00:39:04):

How do you do that if you're somebody who has spent a lifetime feeling insecure, because I agree, you don't want people to take advantage of you. You don't want to get played, you don't want to get scammed. And it happens in small and big ways to people every single day. So if you've always been insecure or you've been taken advantage of, how do you start to build this?

Evy Poumpouras (00:39:31):

I think first there's no way to not ever be insecure and maybe get rid of that word.

(00:39:37):

Maybe think of people. You're not going to get it every time, even myself, there's days where I'm like, I should have seen it or I gave that person a chance, but then I rectify my behavior. I think where people get kind of screwed a bit is when they don't you see it. You don't course correct. That's something else. So you have to be okay with messing up. You have to be okay. When people pull the wool over your eyes, you have to be okay with that. You have to be like, oh, he won. I lost. It happened. Lesson learned. I think that's also strength.

Mel Robbins (00:40:13):

It's not just lesson learned. What you're saying is lesson applied.

Evy Poumpouras (00:40:16):

Yes, but I also have to not be so hard on myself.

Mel Robbins (00:40:20):

Why is not being hard on yourself a good thing when it comes to making sure that you become stronger and braver in the future?

Evy Poumpouras (00:40:29):

Because I'm beating myself up and I'm giving myself more anxiety. I'm making myself more insecure. And then I'm also telling myself, you dummy. That's what I'm saying to me. You're dummy. You should have known better. That's not good. And the whole, I should have this, I should have that. And my husband's very good with that. He's like, he's got this rule. Nobody ever says I should have. He's like in that moment, you make the best decision you can with the information you have. And I think that's having faith and trust in yourself.

Mel Robbins (00:40:59):

So instead of beating yourself up, you just remind yourself, I made the best decision I could

Evy Poumpouras (00:41:03):

With

Mel Robbins (00:41:03):

The information and the situation that I had.

Evy Poumpouras (00:41:07):

Yes. And if you mess up, which we all do, being like, I messed up. I will do better, but then do better. But this, I don't think it's good. It also reminds me in training when you messed up in training, sometimes they'd give us, we do these shooting scenarios, which were really stressful. They would create these secret service compound. We had cities that we called tiny town where we do attacks, simulated attacks or out in the open where we do these attacks. And they were very stressful and they were designed to be very realistic. Everyone's there, everybody's watching everybody's moves. And when you get attacked, depending on the position, you had to memorize who goes where under what circumstances, depending where the line of fire is coming from and what weapons to use and where the cantoral team is coming from and where the shift is.

(00:41:54):

There's so many elements. So you're being attacked. And then at the same time, you have to know your choreography and you would mess up. So in training, they call you out, be like, Hey, you were supposed to do this. You did this. It's wrong. This guy's dead now because of you. Don't do it again. And they move on. Nobody has time to sit to feel bad, move on. So it's like learn, feel it. And maybe you go, I go back home at night and I'm like, man, I messed up on that. That guy could have died if this was a real life scenario.

Mel Robbins (00:42:31):

If you continue to dwell and beat yourself up, you actually won't move on and do better.

Evy Poumpouras (00:42:37):

No,

Mel Robbins (00:42:38):

You're going to make it worse the next time

Evy Poumpouras (00:42:40):

You make yourself insecure. How messed up is that to live in that place?

Mel Robbins (00:42:44):

We sit here and beat ourselves up over forgetting to get the milk or the butter on the list at the grocery store. And you're sitting here going, oh, I screwed up. The guy could have died. Okay, let's move on. But the point is bigger.

Mel Robbins (00:42:58):

One of the things that you have been trained in when it comes to lie detection, as you're interrogating somebody, are there verbal cues that people give you that signal they don't know what the hell they're talking about or they're covering something up?

Evy Poumpouras (00:43:15):

For me there are verbal indicators. There were some things people would do. And this sounds terrible, but it's true. And there's no research to prove this. It's just something we'd see. Any time somebody showed up with a Bible in their hand for an interview. For an interview, oh yeah. Or the rosemary beads or I'd see them praying. So if you bring a for an interview,

Mel Robbins (00:43:33):

A prop, this might be like a, here we go. If you're eye rolling,

Evy Poumpouras (00:43:36):

This is the divine prop. We would call this. So anytime somebody, we'd see someone do that right away is like, that guy's going to fail for sure. Or if in the interview you'd hear like, I swear to God is God is my witness, my grandmother's grave language like that, it always was like, alright, this person did it. Those were little clues. There's no science behind it, research. But these were things that we knew over time. So you would hear things like that because it's kind of like the truth is typically simple. You don't need to swear to God or bring your Bible in to tell me the truth. You don't need to sell it to me. If you didn't do it, you didn't do it. I understand you're going to be nervous. But if I say to you, Mel, did you have donuts this morning for breakfast? And you're like, Evie, I swear to God, I swear to God I didn't do it. I swear to God on my mother's grave, I didn't do it. I'm like, I just asked you if you're having donuts. So those types of reactions with people, you pay attention. Or if you ask your kids a question, Hey, what's one of your kids' names? Are we allowed to say,

Mel Robbins (00:44:37):

Of course Oakley.

Evy Poumpouras (00:44:38):

Oakley, Oakley, did you do your homework? Who me? Homework stalling tactic, right? You know it intuitively. So that's a stalling tactic. We do that to buy time to think about what I want to say. So those are good verbal indicators for why is this person stalling? Sometimes when people put possessive words instead of saying the car versus my car or my car versus the car. So if I hear my car, I like my, if somebody says my car, that means that person likes that car. If they say the car, they don't really like the car. So those are little things that people will do. So there are indicators in language to listen to. And then also when you ask somebody a direct question, this is the biggest thing, did they actually answer your question?

Mel Robbins (00:45:32):

I think a lot of people don't. No, they move on or they I didn't say that. Or they come at you. I'm trying to think of an example. It drives me freaking crazy.

Evy Poumpouras (00:45:45):

Do I need to start polygraphing people for you, Mel?

Mel Robbins (00:45:47):

Yes, but it drives me crazy when you're asking somebody something and then they change the subject or they say, well, I never had time. And I'm like, I didn't ask you about the time I asked you if you know what you're doing. And so there is a disconnect between the question I asked and the answer being irrelevant to the topic of the question.

Evy Poumpouras (00:46:10):

But there you go though. But you just got intel. Why aren't they answering you? Something's wrong. They messed up, they didn't do it, they forgot. That's info.

Mel Robbins (00:46:20):

All of it. And see, I think that for me, I feel like the harder thing to try to detect in people is the omission that the overt lying to me feels like something that would be easier to start to notice when you do what you're teaching us. Don't be so like jacked up when you meet somebody. Slow down, get a baseline, focus on how you're showing up. Notice, give the person the space to be, gather data in terms of what the baseline is and just use your common sense. Is their energy matching their body language and what they're saying. Are they giving you a vibe that you like? You have so much that you can just absorb based on common sense. And then also don't go back in and make it about you always just be on the observing.

Evy Poumpouras (00:47:11):

We self-sabotage ourselves. So I don't want to say this, the self-development space, it's a great thing. I like books like that. I read, I listen, I want to learn. But if so, so in the me, me, me headspace, no, no, no, no. Because you're not things. So you also have to find a part of you where it's like, Mel invited me. I drove all the way from New York City. She wants me here to be her guest. There's a reason I'm here. I walk in, I bring my best self in. I don't walk in, I say hello. I control the parts of me that I can. And then after that, I also have to surrender a bit and then understand that Mel is the other 50% of the equation. 50 50. But if I'm so self-focused and I make the whole thing about me, and I'm not paying attention to you, I'm not reading the room, I'm not looking at your colleagues and even just the tone of the team. How are people feeling? How do they move in the room? Because that's another indication too of the synergy of the environment because sometimes people can shaft you, right? Hey, come on in the charmer, which is something you really should, those are certain cues, certain behaviors with people. Those are definitely red flag cues.

Mel Robbins (00:48:26):

How do you know a charmer?

Evy Poumpouras (00:48:28):

So I interviewed Jim Smith who was a detective for the Canadian police, and he did serial killers. He did all sorts of confessions. We were talking about one of his cases, Russell Williams, and he got a confession, this guy, serial rapist, murder, all that, and he was actually a military commander. Anyways, one of the things I asked Jim, I said, what part of human behavior, of all the types you've met, what was the thing where you were like, Ooh, I got to look out for that person. He's like the charmer, the hey, how are you? I'm here. That person who's very overt and charming and trying to very much ingratiate themselves with you, those people always like, why are you trying so hard? And those are true. They actually charmer that falls into a little bit of that. I'm going to say this from a clinical perspective, a true narcissistic personality disorder or an antisocial personality disorder, which is people who you would call a sociopath or psychopath. Some of them have that trait, not all, but you'll see it there.

Mel Robbins (00:49:37):

So how do you get the truth out of anyone?

Evy Poumpouras (00:49:39):

It depends what you're asking. Do you want them to verbally say something to you? Because you cannot tell me something verbally, but you just showed me the truth and that's all I need. There was somebody I was working very closely with and someone I liked a lot. I considered a friend, but I was also trying to do work stuff with, and she would say a lot, but her actions were very different than what she would say. She had very strong boundaries. But when it came to, if I had like, Hey, I'm not available, it was like, what do you mean you're not available? I'm like, dude, you turn your phone off at five on a Friday and then I am in another country. And you're like, you're kind of losing it.

(00:50:19):

So with people, I don't physically have to have somebody tell me the truth. They can show me the truth. So with this scenario, I'm telling you, there were so many indicators with this person. I never actually had a conversation where I said, you need to tell me blah, blah, blah, blah. They gave me so many indicators to their actions and behavior that it was not for me that collect intel and say, nice human being. I like them, but they're not for me. And you know what I did? I just quietly pulled back because it was too hard of a relationship to have. I never had that conversation. I think people feel like in this day and age where it's like, speak up, tell everybody why. You can just pick and choose when you're going to do it.

Mel Robbins (00:51:05):

I mean, sometimes it's not worth it. Sometimes it's not worth it at all. Can you truly tell how somebody feels about a situation or another person?

Evy Poumpouras (00:51:15):

Mostly it's observing. It's also, it depends. You look at their performance. So let's say it's an employee, just look at their performance. You can try to help people as much as possible. Sometimes they'll show you they'll what they're willing to do and not do.

Mel Robbins (00:51:34):

I think that it's easy to ignore the behavior. It's easy to ignore the kind of output of somebody's behavior and make excuses. And so I keep coming back to this theme with you as I'm having this experience and you're just being you. So I'm giving you the space to be you. And you have this steely confidence and settled nature where if you are grounded, people reveal themselves and you can really decode just about anything if you're paying attention.

Evy Poumpouras (00:52:10):

Let me say one thing. Sure. Because you brought up the confidence thing a few times. There are times where I'm not sure, but I'm still steady in myself. Sometimes we invest in people and we want to believe in people, and we want to trust in people. And then sometimes what is right there in front of us, we don't

Mel Robbins (00:52:29):

Want to see it.

Evy Poumpouras (00:52:30):

No, I don't. I don't want to see it. I'm going to keep and keep and keep and keep, and then I get pissed off at you for not being what I want you to be meeting my expectations. Then I get angrier and more frustrated, and then I'm also mad at myself for being in that situation and on and on and on. That cycle goes.

Mel Robbins (00:52:47):

I'm nodding because I really resonate with that.

Mel Robbins (00:52:50):

How do you break that? So let's say that, because you've even mentioned personally too that you talked about the fact that you were trained in how to deal with lies. So when you realize that what somebody is saying does not match what they're doing, how somebody is treating you does not match what they said. Somebody is talking all about boundaries, but they're crossing yours consistently. How do you confront that? When do you know to call somebody out versus to back away?

Evy Poumpouras (00:53:26):

So sometimes you do have to call people out. So in those moments where you have to deal with someone, let's say it's your team and you have to address certain things, it's okay to address things. And I think that that's another important thing. It's first you make the decision, do I want to deal or not deal?

(00:53:40):

If I don't deal, what are the consequences? It's always better to deal with things when they're small, especially when they're people or circle of people that you have to deal with a team or family member where you're like, this person's not going to go anywhere. But when problems are small, deal with them. Because what happens is they get bigger, bigger, bigger, and then you get angrier, angrier, angrier, and then it becomes this big problem and you're like, you've done this, you've done this, you've done that. And then you get frustrated. So one, when you have small problems, address them because they're small. That person now knows you're paying attention. Also, kindness is clarity. You can be clear in what you expect of others. Sometimes they don't know. We presume I wouldn't do this, so they should know better. It's like, look, they're in a whole other headspace.

(00:54:31):

So I think addressing things while they're small, not waiting for things to get big when it's important. And there are situations where it's like, this person is too much of a mess, it's too much of a shit show or it's too stress. Or if it's someone where your phone rings and you're like your stomach turns, that's when you're like, alright, something's going on here. I need to minimize my exposure to this person. I'm not saying cut people out, although I have done that and I don't think that's a bad thing. Other, you save that for when you need to do it. And then with some others I call it, you just make more space. You make more space, you make more space. You don't answer the phone as often. You let it go to voicemail, you can send a text rather than call back. There are ways to create space with people when you realize, this isn't for me because not everybody is for you, but it's your responsibility to recognize it and then to act on it.

Mel Robbins (00:55:37):

I can feel the person listening completely leaning in, and there's probably a very specific person they have in mind. And then there's that heartache that you feel when you go, oh my God, I'm probably the name on someone else's phone that when my name pops up, their stomach twists because I'm not showing up how I need to show up.

Evy Poumpouras (00:56:03):

Or maybe you're showing up in a way that they don't want you to show up and it doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. What if it's you're calling Oakley because you're concerned and worried about what's going on in Oakley's life and the phone rings and Oakley's like, oh, it's modern, his turning right. In that scenario, I would think maybe sometimes you're like, I don't care if your stomach's turning

Mel Robbins (00:56:28):

Right. Yes, a thousand percent. I know that I'm acting in a way that is aligned with my values.

Evy Poumpouras (00:56:36):

And

Mel Robbins (00:56:36):

The other scenario, when you're making somebody else's stomach turn, you're probably not.

Evy Poumpouras (00:56:40):

Yes, there's scenarios for

Mel Robbins (00:56:43):

That. Yes.

Evy Poumpouras (00:56:44):

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (00:56:44):

Can you talk about Paralinguistics? What is that?

Evy Poumpouras (00:56:48):

So paralinguistics is what you sound like when you speak. It's your tone, your pitch, your voice. So often people are so focused on what they're going to say, right? We have our talking points and I need to make sure I hit this and I hit that. I need to say this. And it is what we sound like when we deliver information that is more powerful than the things that actually come out of our mouth. When I left the US Secret Service and I really learned paralinguistics more so when I began doing the news, I left the Secret Service and I started doing the news and

Mel Robbins (00:57:23):

Meaning you were an expert on the news.

Evy Poumpouras (00:57:24):

So I started doing the Today Show initially and then shootings and crime. And one of the things I learned from the working going on air is I had to learn to make sure my paralinguistics were strong enough so that when I spoke, it resonated. And I found, yes, it matters what you say, but half the time it's how you say it. And so I learned talking points, talk less, give them your greatest hits. And this is whether it's a pitch, you're talking to somebody they don't need at all. Give them the strongest hits that you have, but then put more value in how you speak. So it's authority in your voice. We're more likely to listen and believe in someone and see them as a confident person or as a person of authority when they use a stronger tone voice meaning their stronger, deeper tone.

Mel Robbins (00:58:15):

So if somebody is listening and they would like to convey more confidence, more authority, and they're leaning in as you're talking about paralinguistics, and I hear you loud and clear what you say, it's not what you say that really matters. It's how you say it. It's

Evy Poumpouras (00:58:37):

The strength that comes out through your voice.

Mel Robbins (00:58:39):

And one thing that's going to help you do that is to have very few talking points. So boil down the thing that you want to convey to simple ideas. Focus on a lower and notice I'm doing it now slow way of speaking.

Mel Robbins (00:59:00):

Are there other tips in terms of displaying that kind of authority?

Evy Poumpouras (00:59:05):

Pauses and silence are good because it lets you catch up with your thoughts. You don't have to say everything that's in your head, nobody cares. Just give them your top talking points. The other thing that you touched is when you say less, you don't have to think as hard. So what I'm also trying to do is lighten somebody's cognitive load. If I've got all this stuff in my head that I have to say my cognitive load is maxed out, so I'm not going to speak well because I don't have enough cognitive load to pay attention to my voice, I'm going to go, okay, Mel, this is what I want to tell you about. I drove up from New York and I was really upset about it and I'm not going to have enough bandwidth to stop and think about how I sound. And I would tell people, even when I do the news, I don't want text. I'm like, give me my bullet points. I'm going to practice my stuff, like the talking point, I'm going to know my stuff, I'm going to know these three areas really well,

(01:00:08):

And then I'm not going to try to memorize everything else, forget it. Even if I interview somebody, I'm like, I look through my questions, I start asking questions, but then I'll let the conversation kind of move and go. And then maybe I'll look back at my notes to see like, oh, did I ask that? Let me go back there. But don't get so hung up on memorizing stuff that messes you up, memorizing things, worrying about that I think be the most important thing when you're really trying to convey something to someone. Be present physically. Think about how you're sitting, how you're presenting. That's more important. Think about are you looking at that person, not just when you speak, but when they speak, have that and then at the same time, just own your voice. I think that that's really it. Own your voice and then maybe get rid of things like, I'm just going to hurry up and say this.

(01:00:59):

Alright, I've got a few minutes left. Let me just power through this. Because when you do that, you tell people inadvertently, I'm going to hurry through this because what I have to say is not that important. So I'm don't want to waste your time because obviously I'm wasting it. That's what I'm saying. And I really truly, I learned this through watching presidents. These guys would speak, they didn't race through anything. They get up on that mic. Nope, I have something to say. And not just them, but other world leaders, they would get up there and they would speak, they would own their voice, own it, especially women. Mel and I usually don't try to gender things, but with women we go, hi, and we okay. And I think your voice captures all the stuff you've been through in life. So just make sure that the voice you're using is really your true voice and not the one that's captured all these markers of shame, of guilt, of frustration, of embarrassment, and now you're showing up with not your true voice. Where I'm going with that is you don't have to be on all the time. You don't have to be a hundred percent brave, a hundred percent confident. You don't always have to be here. You don't always have to operate at this level.

(01:02:16):

It's okay if you don't. You become more courageous or more brave when you do things. I will tell you, the more I've messed up, the more I lose, the more brave I become. You don't get better when you win. You just don't. Is it nice to win? Sure. Is it nice not to get rejection? Sure, but bravery comes through action. It's not something you think about, it's something you do. I think what's really important is it is okay to go into a meeting and be afraid. It is okay to have a conversation with someone and be like, you know what? I don't really have it, but I'm just going to ask what I need to ask. I think what's important is get into the what am I actually doing here? And maybe leave yourself, kind of leave that you out of it, check yourself out the door, check your emotions at the door, leave them there.

(01:03:11):

And if you can come and mission focus. So if I sat there and let's say I did once, it's really high profile. I don't think I am not allowed to say what case it's, but it was a high profile case of a murder of a child and it was a very well-known case and there was new information that came out. Was I concerned? Yes. Was I nervous? Yes. All eyes were on me to get information, but I went in and I said, Evie, you don't matter, Evie, you're going to stay outside. You're going to be focused on what you're doing. And my goal is to get information to see is this person involved with the murder of this child or do they have information? What is really going on here? And so I took all of my essence in being to focus on what I was trying to accomplish That has helped me even in personal situations.

(01:04:03):

Let's say you have a loved one and you want to know, let's say they have a substance abuse issue and you really want to find out what's going on. You're going to check you at the door and you're going to say, okay, this is not about me and how I feel. I want to find out as much as I can about what's going on with this person. And then once I get all the intel intelligence information I have, now I can move. So that's how you become brave when you become focused on what you're doing. So maybe these ideas of I need to be brave to do this, I need to be confident to do this. I need to have motivation to do this such time wasters. So I can't do something unless I have bravery and I have to check that or unless I'm confident, check that or unless I'm motivated, check that I'm going to do nothing.

(01:04:54):

And we create obstacles, we put these in the middle of what we're trying to do and then you know what we do? We don't do what we're supposed to do because we're chasing these outliers that really are they really the barometers of whether I'm going to accomplish something or not. I didn't know anything. When I went to NYPD my first week, I was a hot mess. I was like, what am I doing here yelling at me? I can't wear makeup. I was like, what do you mean you can't wear makeup? You're not allowed to wear makeup. I'm like, you want me to come in like me? So it was just so off. But was I afraid I was all these things, but I showed up.

Mel Robbins (01:05:32):

You know what I've learned from you so far that I think is really important and it's changed the way that I would approach a situation with a loved one is when you mentioned, let's say you've got somebody that you love that has a substance abuse problem. Most of us would go into that intervention or that conversation like I got to get the truth out of them. And what I've learned from you in just this conversation is that you don't need them to say anything before you walk in that door and have that conversation. You need to be clear about your objectives and what you are doing, which is you are trying to assess the situation and gather data. It doesn't require them to speak at

Evy Poumpouras (01:06:19):

All. So that's a great example the way you broke it down. So what is your true goal in that situation? Let's use this as an example. I have someone, a loved one who's got a substance abuse issue. What is my goal Ultimately?

Mel Robbins (01:06:30):

My goal ultimately is to be the most effective that I can to support my loved one from a safe distance. And that is going to require me to get a assessment of what the hell is happening based on my gut. Because if I'm dealing with somebody with addiction, that's somebody that lies as a coping mechanism. So I know that going in, I also have a whole history of behavior that I've probably been in denial about that

(01:07:06):

I know that going in. And so you're going into observe and assess and to ask questions with an open heart and an open mind. But you got to have your secret service brain training in the background because based on body language, based on tone of voice, based on not answering questions based on past behavior, you are going to get all the data that you need to know where the situation is, whether they tell you the truth or not. And then it's not on them. It's on you to decide what you're going to do about it. Because we also know that people don't heal until they're ready to heal. They don't get sober until the pain of being drunk or stoned or whatever is way worse than the pain of actually trying to change. And so there's nothing you can do to force them to actually change. All you can do is use the tools that you're giving us right now to not get so damn emotional and not try to control the situation and not try to accuse, but to just sit back and be like, I'm here to get the data that I need to know what I need to do next. That's all I can control anyway.

Evy Poumpouras (01:08:22):

What am I dealing with?

Mel Robbins (01:08:24):

What am I dealing with here?

Evy Poumpouras (01:08:24):

I need to know what's going on in front of me. Look, and you can maybe take it one further if you already know, you might be like, my goal is to try to talk to this person to see if can I get them to go get help rehab or whatever help looks like that could be really ultimately your mission, but you also have to be okay with, you may not get there and maybe, but my goal is to get the truth so then I can try to get this person help. But I also know I'm 50% of the equation.

(01:08:51):

They're the other 50, so they may not want my help or want all that stuff you just said. So I have to be okay with that. And I also have to have my strategy for what do I do then afterward and I can figure that out later, what it's going to look like for me, whether do I want this person in my life and how much given the circumstances, yada, yada. But when you go in that conversation, you're not going in how I feel what this is doing to my life. It's like I want to know what the fuck is going on, what am I dealing with? And then it's can I get you, my ultimate goal would be my mission to get you help, but I may not get there. Maybe not that day.

Mel Robbins (01:09:30):

Well, what I love about this approach is that it has nothing to do with them. And even if you go in and we all want everybody to reassure us,

Mel Robbins (01:09:44):

Right, we all want everybody to tell us the truth. Somebody not reassuring you is an answer. Somebody not giving you a direct answer is an answer. Somebody refusing to answer your questions is also an answer. And we spend way too much time then dismissing that and making excuses for it. Instead of saying, this motherfucker can't even tell me. Give me a one sentence answer to a simple question. I have all the information I need to know what I'm dealing with. And it's the inability I think to assess the situation and to really trust your gut and to look at somebody's behavior or their lack of behavior as the only honest answer that they can give you. And then to act accordingly.

Evy Poumpouras (01:10:35):

It's interesting. I remember I did this one interview, I don't remember what the person did. See, he was involved in some kind of fraud or something and he wouldn't come out. So you would think in a, trying to get a confession from someone is you want 'em to say, I did this and what I learned is that's not what you're after. I didn't need that. So he wasn't giving me any information about what was going on. And then, so I never tried to get them to say, I stole this money, I committed this crime. I wasn't trying to get that, but I would get them. They're called admissions where people admit little, little things. And as you get these little admissions, all these little admissions give you a picture. It's like a puzzle. I remember with him, I said to him, you don't have to tell me if you did it or not. Can you tell me what are you worried about? And his thing was, I'm worried about my family.

(01:11:35):

Huge red flag. I'm like, he just gave me the admission. He just told me why. He doesn't want to tell me why he did what he did. So I said, okay, you're worried about your family. He said, yes, the blowback. Well, I think we needed to do a search warrant or something. And I said, well, they need to do a search warrant. How do you want to do this? How can I help you? Maybe he's like, I can get my wife to leave town. So these are little admissions that he's without him telling me, yes, I did this. He's giving me little, little clues that are telling me I did this. You don't need the smoking gun from people. They show you. But everyone's waiting for the person to say, I did this. I lied, I cheated. It's a waste of time to try to get that. Most of the information you're going to get from people are little breadcrumbs that you collect and you put together and you got your loaf of bread.

Mel Robbins (01:12:27):

And I think the biggest thing standing in the way is you don't want to see the truth.

Evy Poumpouras (01:12:31):

No.

Mel Robbins (01:12:32):

And that's why we don't trust our guts because all along the way, people's behavior and their lack of behavior and their decisions are giving you the truth about who they are and what they care about and what they're doing and what they're not doing and how they make you feel. And we are so focused on, I did that. We don't hear the bell that's ringing deep inside us and it's really fascinating. If you could speak directly to the person that's listening and there was just one change or takeaway that you wanted them to take from everything that you taught us today, what would it be?

Evy Poumpouras (01:13:23):

Handle your shit. Don't avoid your problems. Don't blame other people. Handle it. If things aren't right, they're not right because you're allowing them to not be right. It's hard. I'm not saying it, and I come with humility. It's a hard thing to deal to do it, but it is on you to handle your stuff because when we don't, we get pissed at everybody around us. You should this and you should that and only you should do this. And it's a really hard way to live where your steadiness, your bravery, your confidence, your happiness, your whatever is tethered to the instability of other people and whether or not they're going to give you what you hope they will give you live in reality and live in truth. When you do that, you make better decisions.

Mel Robbins (01:14:16):

For somebody who just went, oh shit, Evie, I do have to handle my shit. I have been avoiding the truth. I have been blaming other people. I haven't taken responsibility.

Mel Robbins (01:14:30):

What is the first step? When you have that realization that you've been ignoring your instincts or you've been beating yourself up, or you've not been taking responsibility for changing yourself or the situation that you're in,

Evy Poumpouras (01:14:47):

You're going to sit down and you're actually going to put into effect what you're going to do. So I need to address this person. I need to leave this relationship. I need to quit this job. Whatever it is. I need to ask my loved one to leave the house or my kid who's got an addiction issue. I have to do the hard thing. Usually the hard thing is harder in our mind once you do it. Not saying it's not going to hurt, but you have to do these things if it is the right thing to do.

(01:15:18):

We all know what we should do. We don't do it. We all know. That's what I would do. Put into action what you want to do. The one thing I'll say is once you come to that realization, get into a place where you're steady and prepared because people look, people are, I don't want to say people are manipulative, some people are. Some people will sell you. Some people will mislead you. Some people will confuse you. There's this great ancient Greek quote and I love it. It says it was from Aeu, from the Iliad. He said, don't listen to your enemies. Look at them. It will tell you everything.

(01:15:57):

And I'm not saying people are your enemies, but what I'm saying is people, when you listen to the words, people tell you all sorts of stuff to get you to change your mind, you have to look and pay attention. Just do. I think that's the biggest thing. So once you make that choice, put your plan in place, leave your emotional self at the door and be like, I'm going to handle this. But I think one of the mistakes people make sometimes is I'm going to, and it's not always in the scenario, I'm going to sit this person down and I'm going to tell them this and I'm going to tell them that. Sometimes it's just like, pack up your shit and leave. Sometimes it's just as simple as that. You don't need to sit them down. What are your parting words?

(01:16:48):

Trust yourself. Nobody knows what's best for you except for you. Nobody. Stop asking everybody. It's okay to ask people for guidance, but if you're going to ask someone, make sure that they have the expertise and knowledge to guide you. But sometimes it's better. You know what? The most important decisions I've ever made, I didn't ask anybody. I didn't ask anybody if I should become a cop. I didn't ask anybody if I should be a secret service agent. I didn't ask anybody what I should do on nine 11. I didn't ask. That's how you build confidence.

Mel Robbins (01:17:25):

Evie, I think that you were here today to talk directly to me. Handle your shit. Mel Robbins is, it's hard. It's hard. It is hard. There were so many incredible things that you said, this is exactly what I needed to hear. I'm sure it is exactly what you needed to hear today too. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here and for just telling us what we needed to hear.

Evy Poumpouras (01:17:57):

I tell to myself all day long too, I'm not excluded. We all just have to handle our stuff. But thank you. Thank you, Mel, for having me.

Mel Robbins (01:18:03):

You're welcome. And for you, I wanted to just make sure to tell you in case nobody else does that, I love you. I believe in you. Now go handle your shit like Evie just told you to. And I'll talk to you in a few days. And for you sitting here watching with me on YouTube, I just want to say please share this with somebody. Don't just sit and watch. Please do something and take a minute and subscribe to this channel because it's really a way that you can support me in bringing you new videos every single day. And I'm sure you're looking for something really inspiring to watch, to really move you. So I want you to check out this video next.

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Guests Appearing in this Episode

Evy Poumpouras

Evy Poumpouras is a former Secret Service agent who has protected 5 US presidents, as well as an author and speaker specializing in resilience, leadership, and personal protection.

Books
Courage involves facing our fears, but it is also about resilience, grit, and having a built-in BS detector and knowing how to use it. In Becoming Bulletproof, Poumpouras demonstrates how to heighten our natural instincts to employ all these qualities and move from fear to fearlessness.

Resources

- Harvard Business Review: How to look and sound confident
- The New Yorker: Reading body language like the experts
- New York Times: Really? You can spot a lie by watching a person’s eyes
- Scientific American: Language patterns reveal body’s response to stress.
- New York Times: Can you spot a liar?
- University of Texas: How much of communication is nonverbal?
- Forbes: The mistakes people make reading your body language
- Forbes: 7 tricks for reading body language like a pro
- New York Times: To tell the truth, it’s awfully hard to spot a liar
- Forbes: 5 ways body language impacts leadership results.

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Guests Appearing in this Episode

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Resources

2 Million Readers. 1 Life-Changing Newsletter

Related Episodes

Anxiety

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Health

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Most Popular

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2 Million Readers.
1 Life-Changing Newsletter