How to Deal With Difficult People: One Trick to Live a More Peaceful & Fulfilled Life

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:13:11):

That's exactly right. And I think that too, that the mistake is maybe if I'm a better daughter, better partner, better mother, better worker, whatever, better writer, whatever the better one wants to be, the error is thinking that it will change them at best. What it might do is make you a better source of supply.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:13:39):

I'm going to use the example a lot of people give me, okay? Because we talk a lot about partners. Let's talk about parents for a minute because even adult children are very much in the thro of their narcissistic parents. If only I did this, I visited them more, I called them more, I did this more, I did whatever it may be. Because remember, you're on a grail quest that anyone who's had a narcissistic parent ever has that grail quest started in childhood, right? So kind of insidious about people who are still struggling with narcissistic parents when they're adults. You're still showing up with the finger painted picture when you were four saying, do you like my picture? Right now we're doing it with jobs and books and titles, and look at my new house and look at my new car and look at this baby I had. And

 

Mel Robbins (00:14:22):

Here's yeah, grandchildren.

(00:15:22):

That child needs a secure attachment. And when that's not happening, just because the parent is being a parent and the child has to modify themselves, they will modify themselves because the child doesn't have the luxury of saying, oh, my parent's a narcissist, so nothing I'm going to do is going to work. They can't divorce the parent, so they've got to modify themselves. That builds up a muscle in the child, and that muscle that gets built up in the child is that capacity to modify oneself to be what the other person needs to create an attachment. So not only does that become a bad precedent once you start dating, because then you are putty in the narcissistic person's hands, you're shaping yourself to suit them. You remain again in that way with a parent. You continue to say whatever the equivalent of the finger painted picture is in adulthood, and maybe I will show up more, but it's never enough.

 

(00:16:14):

And if you did live next door to them, then they'll have contempt for you of why are you taking so much of my time? It's never enough. And so what the person's trying to do in any narcissistic relationship, including with a parent, is we think we're becoming better to change them when we keep becoming better. 

Mel Robbins (00:16:54):

If you're raised by a parent that's narcissistic and conditioned in that way, are you more susceptible to being in narcissistic relationships later in life?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:17:06):

You are. You definitely are for no other reason that you've built this muscle up, that accommodation muscle, as I call it, there's a flexibility a person needs to have and develop if they have a narcissistic parent or otherwise, they're going to develop pretty severe mental health issues, which does happen to a subset of folks. But by and large, what we see survivors of narcissistic abuse, especially from childhood, are very flexible, very accommodating, because they had to for survival reasons once upon a time. Now, what I do not buy into is this idea that because a person has narcissistic parent or parents that they're more attracted to narcissistic people. That's not the case. What they're more likely to get is stuck in that relationship, right? Narcissistic people are attractive to everyone. Charm, charisma, shiny, interesting, curious, confident, rescuable, whatever we need them to be. They often are that thing. But once it starts getting darker and there's a lot of devaluation, the relationship becomes less healthy. Healthier people may be able to muster up in themselves, this does not feel good. I don't like this, but the people who had the narcissistic parent are much more likely to say, oh, I know this.

 

Mel Robbins (00:18:26):

You've been making excuses for your

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:18:27):

Parents for so long, you making, exactly. So the slide into the trauma bond is much, much more seamless, and it happens automatically because the, oh, I just have to be more. Got it. Of course, I have to earn love. That makes sense.

 

Mel Robbins (00:18:41):

So as an expert on this topic and a practicing clinician, what are the signs that you have experienced? Narcissistic, emotional abuse,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:18:53):

Self-doubt, confusion, anxiety, a sense of helplessness, frustration, powerlessness, problems with sleep, problems with concentration, decrements or lack of self-care of any kind, feeling selfish if you do anything for yourself, being on edge, being hypervigilant, always ready to fix feeling. You have to change yourself to please other people. A sense of loneliness, a sense of isolation, a sense that you're weird. That's just the shortlist.

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:32):

Wow. And what is the first step? If you're listening to this and you're going, yep, narcissistic parents are, yep, I survived a narcissistic spouse, or I'm with one, or I've been in a relationship with one, and you're like, I exhibit all those things. What's the first step that somebody needs to take in order to start to heal from that kind of

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:19:56):

Damage? You got to see it for what it is. And so that takes us to the place of radical acceptance. 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:21:26):

Yes.

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:27):

To you healing.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:21:28):

Yep.

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:29):

Why?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:21:30):

Because now your psychological resources are still invested in the idea of them changing. So until we can get that off the table, you are going to still have way too much of you invested in something that's never going to happen, which means that there's not enough of you left to work on your healing, your process of individuation, your process of finally getting to live in yourself rather than in service to them. Does that make sense?

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:59):

It makes a lot of sense because for decades with a particular person in my life, I hoped that they would change and I would twist myself in knots and show up differently and try a little bit harder and do this and do that and constantly think about it. And what was always there in the background was the hope that things could be different.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:22:23):

Correct.

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:23):

And it wasn't until I met you three years ago or four years ago now, and you said they are not changing, period. They're not even aware that they have this personality style and they don't care. They don't care, and there is nothing that you can do to change this. And when you said that, it was very interesting, I could see it for what it was. It's almost like when somebody says about themselves, well, I just am in the way that I am, and people in my life have always said, well, that person, Mel, is just the way that they are. That's just who they are. I could never accept that because I wanted it to be different. Correct, and you're right, it was the hope that it could be better, the hope that this person would change the hope that things could look different. That kept me trying so much, even though I think deep down I knew that it wasn't going to make a difference. Right. That is a sad ass statement. Yes, it is. That hope that somebody else will change is what keeps us from healing.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:23:33):

Yeah. Would you agree with that, that once the hope got lifted for you, do you feel like your healing proceeded?

 

Mel Robbins (00:23:38):

Yeah. Yeah. Once I understood the situation for what it was, I was so enmeshed in the situation because it had been going on decades that I just couldn't even see the situation that I was in. But when I started to understand more about narcissistic personality styles based on you and some work with my therapist and I started seeing the behavior patterns and I stopped making it so personal and I extracted what I wanted and all my feelings and just saw it for what it is when this happens, this person does this, you can start to predict it. It in terms of the patterns, once I was able, as much as I didn't want to, and I think that's the other thing that we don't talk about a lot when it comes to narcissism is that you can understand all that, but if you still somewhere in the back of your mind go, but I don't want it to be that way, you will forever be at the whim of that behavior.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:24:42):

And I wouldn't even say it's so much Mel that I don't want it to be that way, is that I believe it could be different. The situation I'm hearing from you is you don't want it to be this way. No, you don't. The key, the lifting of the hope, the radical acceptance is it can't be any other way.

 

Mel Robbins (00:24:59):

That's painful. I do think that's probably why we do stay in these relationships.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:25:06):

You think people stay because they think it can change?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:25:14):

I think that that's part of it, but I think that even when hope gets lifted, taken out, radical acceptance comes, people still need to stay, and the reasons for that are often things like practical factors, money, shelter, health insurance, family court, co-parenting, minor children not wanting to share custody with someone who's not up to it, but the courts don't care. It could be duty and obligation, it could be stigmas against divorce within a cultural system. There are so many other factors and the challenges, those factors are very real, even when they don't feel real. Duty and obligation are still perceptions and constructs, but they are very real. It is challenging because to eradicate the hope and that this is how it's going to be, and yet you always have to be in it. What happens then, and this is the hardest part, you say, what's step one?

 

(00:26:10):

Radical acceptance. What's step two? And this is the worst part of this whole process, is grief. Because grief, when we think of the word grief, we think of someone who's died, right? Someone dies and we have grief. They're no longer in our life. We can't talk to them in the same way where there is a loss. They're not part of our routines. In the same way we think of grief as lost. Sometimes people will extend grief to a breakup or a divorce or something like that, 

Mel Robbins (00:28:00):

In the topic of hope and radical acceptance, I think there's a bunch of things that you hope for. You hope for a behavior change. You hope that there's something that you can do that will somehow make things better. You hope to feel loved, and you also hope at times for an apology.

(00:29:50):

We can heal from trauma so much better if the story around it feels just, I hate to say it, but if the narcissistic person fails, takes a tumble, gets a public humiliation, it makes healing so much easier.

 

Mel Robbins (00:30:08):

I'm so happy you brought this up because it makes me think of somebody in my life who went through a divorce, gosh, close to a decade ago, and she is still hung up on the ex. The ex was moving in a girlfriend to the family house 20 years younger, almost immediately, lifelong friends now rallying around him. She to this day cannot get over it. And I have always looked at the situation and thought this was 10 years ago. You're not that weak of a human being. You understand it. You know that this spouse has a narcissistic personality style. Your kids know that this spouse has a narcissistic personality style. You know that nothing is going to change, and you just explain why she cannot let it go.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:31:09):

That's right. She can't let it go

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:10):

Because it doesn't feel there's no justice.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:31:13):

No, because see, I would argue your friend is fully at radical acceptance. She knows what he's about. Nothing he does surprises her,

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:19):

Correct?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:31:19):

Right. But the peace and the cognitive dissonance created by them continually being rewarded and rewarded, that is a huge barrier to healing. And there's actually no sort of magic piece to that. I've said in the past, listen, the ultimate justice is that they still have to be them. But you know what? To them, if they're living large with their much younger spouse in the house and the money's coming in, they genuinely believe they've won. And because the other person in the relationship had a full compliment of empathy and kindness and goodness, and they feel the wounds, the person who was harmed by the narcissist is hurt and carries that as a real thing. The narcissistic person just merely found new supply, which is all you were in the first place anyhow, and it feels awful, and there is no quick fix to that except to identify it as an injustice.

 

(00:32:15):

It's not a, you need to get over it. Oh, come on, this, that and the other. This is real. Part of the radical acceptance process is how unfairly this narcissism thing plays out in the world at large. It's why I do what I do, because frankly, I'm tired of watching them get away with it. And so people say, come on, Ramini. You're not going to stop a bunch of tech billionaires and all that, and they're narcissistic selves from ruling the world. I said, that's never my goal. I use the products that they create, but I'll tell you what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to steer people away from relationships with them. 

Mel Robbins (00:33:37):

It never fails. I always learn something from you. I'm so grateful that you're here as you're listening to Dr. Ramani. Aren't you grateful she's here too? And I want to take a short break to hear a word from our sponsors. They allow me to bring this amazing information to you at zero cost. Don't you dare go anywhere. We'll be right back. Welcome back. I'm so glad you're here with me today. I'm your friend Mel, and I'm here with Dr. Ramani Durvasula. She is the world's leading expert and researcher on narcissism. We are talking about her brand new bestselling book. It's Not You, and we're talking about the new research in that book.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:34:11):

Let's talk a little bit about rumination, because I think it's one of the most important things to understand about healing from narcissistic abuse. It relates to the friend you just talked about. Absolutely. Rumination is can't stop thinking, can't stop thinking. Now, here's where rumination gets interesting. One thing the research tells us, even from the times of Charles Darwin, we have argued that rumination has a function, right? It does. What is it? The function of rumination is a solution. 

Mel Robbins (00:35:45):

Right? I'm thinking about this person. And they have isolated themselves.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:35:49):

Exactly.

 

Mel Robbins (00:35:50):

They are basically this once vibrant, like amazing person is literally living a very, very small life, is stuck in the thinking. The last time I saw this person, she was thinking about what's going to happen at her daughter's wedding when the ex brings a new none. By the way, the daughter's not even engaged

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:36:13):

And may never get married,

 

Mel Robbins (00:36:15):

Right? But I'm saying you're exactly right, because they're spinning their wheels in isolation on a problem that has no solution,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:36:23):

So it becomes depression. So the tricky bit is rumination is a key part of almost every mental health issue. Anxiety, depression, you name it. But it holds a unique spot for survivors of narcissistic abuse because they're going through something that most people don't understand. Even a lot of therapists don't understand it, but certainly their friends, a lot of people are like, come on, get over it. He's a terrible guy. You should be happy. You're out of it, but they don't feel happy. Find someone. You can talk about this about so many times until you actually let it out. Probably the best place to do that is therapy. I have clients. I mean, I think of some of my clients and they'll over and over say, I feel like a loser. I'm telling you this again. I said, you think you're telling me the same story, but every time you tell it, you've actually put another piece of it down. I am hearing the difference. You are not. And every time they tell the story, we're putting another piece of it down to the point where they finally release it. Friends aren't always the best place to do it, right? Because friends are like, how? I'm sick

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:21):

Of it. I'm literally like, I've heard about this crap for 10 years and you're in therapy and this is an issue, and it makes me profoundly sad to see that this ex has moved on and is very happy, doesn't think about you at all other than to complain about anytime something with the kids and you are living in a mental hole

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:37:43):

And is still living in service to the partner, so is still not pulled themselves psychologically out. This is really about pulling out all the connections. Do you know how when you take wallpaper or something off a wall, you leave all those sticky bits, you got to get in there and get all those sticky bits

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:01):

Off? Yeah. I want to take a step back and talk a little bit about the definition of being a survivor of narcissistic abuse. How would you describe someone or what being a survivor of narcissistic abuse is?

(00:39:22):

All of those things are a byproduct of having gone through one of these relationships. And if a person is not taught what narcissism is, how it shows up in them, what was happening in the relationship, and above all else being sort of coaxed into radical acceptance, these behaviors are never going to change. These patterns are never going to change. You can set a clock by this person. Years ago, Mel, I worked with a client who was a tough sell on this, and I did something very unorthodox as a therapist. The person would come in and say, I think that this is going to happen. I said, no, actually, I think this is what's going to go down. She said, there's no way that that's what's going to go down. I said, you want to make a bet? And so at the time, I had a office that was on top of a coffee shop, and it was a pain in the neck for me. It was actually across the street, down across the street. It was

 

(00:40:15):

A very busy process. It's hard to cross the street. So someone would bring me tea would be the greatest thing ever. I said, I'll make you a bet. And if it goes down the way I say, it goes down, you buy me a tea and you bring it to your session. This is not how we're supposed to do therapy. I'm bored of psychology. Please don't listen. It works. Do it. So we did that. By the time I was done, she probably had brought me 60 cups of tea. I think only once did I get it wrong, and I had to get the coffee once. It was a bummer. I drove, but got it. 60 cups of tea.

 

Mel Robbins (00:40:45):

So is that somebody who is so disconnected with reality?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:40:50):

What the heck? No, it was the hope. Here's where it got interesting, and this is to me the more important part of it. Ended therapy and said, you know what? Thank you. Thank you for the fact that au entire therapeutic experience cost me hundreds more because of the tea. But she said it was your conviction. She's like, you already had the coaster out for the tea. You were ready for that. I know she'd come in with the tea. She didn't tell me in advance. The tea would show up. I was like, and so she said, you were so sure, and that assuredness, that conviction, it showed me this had to be a pattern. You didn't have a crystal ball. You weren't a future reader. You knew this as a pattern. Over time, she said, I kind of knew it could be the other way. It's almost like she said by the 60th cup of tea, I got it.

Mel Robbins (00:42:28):

What you said about hope is genius. Because with this particular example that I've just shared with this friend of mine, I personally believe if I were to make a bet that she hopes they get back together. Correct. And so if this is resonating with you as you're listening, what I want to know Dr. Ramani, is if you're holding out hope that that parent's going to change. If you're holding out hope that things could be different. If you're holding out hope that this person that is narcissistic in your life, that somehow something is going to be different, how do you start to dismantle this thing that you've been holding onto forever that keeps you completely enmeshed in this relationship and this freaking fantasy in your brain?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:43:15):

Part of it is the writing it down. I know it sounds like a strange thing to suggest, but there's something very different because euphoric recalls a very real phenomenon

 

Mel Robbins (00:43:23):

Is euphoric. Recall. What is that

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:43:25):

Euphoric recall is it's almost like a twist on what our minds usually don't do, but in narcissistic relationships, people cherry pick the good stuff. But we did have a really nice time in Miami 10 years ago, and they really did. We laughed so much at that TV show. Gosh, sex was actually really good, like euphoric recall, pick the good things. That's why writing it down and writing it down with people who watch the relationship and get the relationship, just getting it all down because there's times you're not going to be able to get it down. I've helped a lot of clients write these it lists. I'm like, well, remember that time you told me this? And remember the time you told me that? And they'd keep like, oh, yes, I do. I am so sorry. Yes, I get it. And so we pile it all up and you can't unsee it then, right? It's almost like looking at the 5,000 transgressions of somebody you're going to hire. You do realize if you bring them back, these are all the things he did,

 

(00:44:22):

An HR person would be like, yeah, no, no, we can't bring this person back. We can bring that. The more we have the data, that's one big piece to the hope. There's the other thing, again, talk about this in the book, is this idea of going into something I call going into the tiger's cage. Okay? So when a client's like, no, no, no, no, no, it's going to be different. Remember Mel as a therapist, my job is never to be dogmatic and say absolutely not. I'll say, okay, I'm always going to hold space with the client to feel safe to go try something and that there's no judgment. So I'll say, no, I think it's going to be different. I'm like, okay.

 

Mel Robbins (00:45:01):

I couldn't be a therapist. I'd be like, you stupid idiot. It is not going to be different. I literally want to reach out and grab my friend and strangle some sense under her. I know that sounds like a very violent thing, but it breaks my

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:45:12):

Heart. I know. But this tiger's cage pieces, I say to them, okay, so cage cat. Now we're far enough from that cat. You're like, is that a cat or is that a tiger?

 

(00:45:25):

There's only one way to find out. And they'll say, no, I want to find out which one it is. I'll say, go in the cage, which means have the interaction think it's going to be different. Tell them you're good news and think they're going to be happy for you or confront them on something, whatever it is. And it pains me as a therapist. You know how it's going to go down and they go in and invariably, if it was a tiger, what's a tiger going to do? It's going to tear off your arms and legs and tear your throat out. If it's a kitten, well, you just got yourself a new little pet. Sometimes they go in and they have the difficult conversation. I'd say one in a thousand times. It's a little kitty. They misjudged the person more often, not I get this torn apart person and they're saying, it's like a cup of tea, you told me. And I went in there and I say, but this is material, so let's break it down. Those kinds of almost real time analysis of these things are how we dismantle the hope. I mean, it's almost like an addict in that way. Mel. How many times does it have to pile up before a person hits rock bottom? Depends on the person. It's different. Depends on the

 

Mel Robbins (00:46:31):

Person. Depends on the person.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:46:33):

I'm really trying to get the survivor to their rock bottom. Rock bottom is where hope goes away.

(00:47:33):

And I remember being in conversations with this person and they had zero recall of the devaluing, but you're only focusing on the good. Remember the time they disappeared for three days? Remember the time where they denied doing drugs and now you're learning they're selling them to everybody. Remember the time, all of this stuff. And I think having it in black and white is a really good strategy because I can even think about my own life dealing with somebody close to me with a narcissistic personality style, and how often I'm like, yeah, but five years ago when this was going on, they were really great and they had a hard childhood. And I want to keep coming back to the hope piece because I do see how hoping that something's going to change keeps you trapped.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:48:25):

Correct.

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:26):

And what other strategies are there for somebody that is listening, sees themselves and is like, but I do hope they change. And it's hard for somebody like me because Dr. Ramani, I'm like, but anybody can change.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:48:41):

Anyone can change. The narcissistic person won't change.

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:44):

Oh, that's a big difference. Anybody can change a narcissistic person. Ooh, that stings and hoping that they will keeps you trapped,

Mel Robbins (00:49:16):

You just have a way with words and a way of explaining things, Dr. Ramani, that I so appreciate. So one of the things that I also read about in your new book is this 12 month cleanse, and I want to take a short break to hear a word from our sponsors. They allow me to bring this amazing information to you at zero cost, and when we return, we are going to jump into more on how you heal, how you thrive, and she's going to cover this 12 month cleanse. Stay with us. Hey, it's your friend, mal. I'm so glad that you are still here. I'm here with Dr. Ramani Durvasula and we are talking all things healing and thriving after being in a relationship with a narcissist. So Dr. Ramani, how can you address the kind of wounds that you have personally from surviving, narcissistic abuse, and still also keep yourself from falling back into a relationship with somebody new that exhibits these behavior? Because I also read in your book that you're sort of more susceptible to this dynamic once you've been in it,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:50:22):

If you haven't learned about it, right? See, that's the big if it's like a lot of people might go unseeing from narcissistic relationship to narcissistic relationship to narcissistic relationship because in all of this, they just think, I'm just getting into bad relationships, or I'm just meeting a lot of bad guys. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. This is about narcissism. And narcissism isn't just about the personality of that person. It's really about the tactics that they employ in a relationship and why they're so appealing and then why they're so destabilizing. It's both of those things happening. If anything, Mel, I have to tell you, people who have gone through narcissistic relationships and then they're going back out there and considering dating again and all of that, they overcorrect. Now, here's one thing.

 

Mel Robbins (00:51:10):

What does that mean?

(00:52:00):

But even if it was 30 years, 40 years, one year, one year off, why you ask? Because he was like, what is that going to do? What we lose in these relationships is ourselves, our entire sense of self authenticity, who we are, what we're about, our values, our judgment, everything. It's gone. It's gone. To build that back up to figure out, do you actually pepperoni on your pizza? Where do you want the thermostat set? What do you like to watch on tv? How many covers do you want in the blanket that takes a year? And I'm going for the easy stuff, the pizza toppings and the TV shows. It's when you're feeling sad. Where do you want to take that? It's a year of figuring yourself out, which most people never do in their adult lives, by the way. And then you throw in their year of anniversary dates, your birthday without them, their birthday, without them holidays, summertime, whatever it is, because every one of those scripts needs to be rewritten over, and you can't do it if there's already someone else in there preying upon and playing upon your tendency to want to please even if it's a healthy person.

 

(00:53:20):

After that year, you've grown more accustomed to being with yourself because the reflexive play is, listen, there's nothing that feels better than a rebound. I'm going to quickly go in there and have someone send me, you're my queen nonsense tax, and I'm going to get over this. No, you're not. Because to me, I understand that's a short-term play and that's going to feel really good for a minute, the hair of the dog.

 

(00:53:43):

But what we need people to do is this, to me is a lifelong play. You need to be comfortable with yourself and every client I could get through that year, and initially they looked at me and I said, listen, I am not the police. If you decide to go and have a relationship in these 12 months, the only thing I'm going to say is this is going to prolong this process. The ones who listened got to the other end of that year and said, thank you so much. They're like, now I'm so much more stable. They're still hurting. They were still struggling, but what they didn't do was succumb, and what's happened is they're getting the most essential skill to heal from narcissistic abuse, and that's discernment. Discernment. Listen, think of it this way, Mel, when I look and see, I read online, I look how people live their lives.

 

(00:54:32):

How careful are I was like, I'm using this specially sourced tea from a mountain top in Nepal. Only virgin goats would ever go to have sex for the first time. I'm like, you went through that much damn trouble to get those tea leaves and you are not paying attention to someone love bombing. You. Be as discerning in your relationships as you are about what you put in your mouth, what you put on your body, your gym, your workouts. Everyone's like wellness. Wellness. This is where wellness begins, how you decide who comes into your life. That's discernment, and that's the skill you need a year off to start building that muscle.

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:09):

I could not agree more. I could not agree more. Can we talk about this, a kind of healing process inside a family?

 

(00:55:21):

Because let's just say that it's not somebody that has divorced you or you've broken up with them and you're kind of grappling with the, okay, I got to dismantle the hope. Then I got to give up the fact that this just doesn't feel right. They've already moved on, and now that person's going on the trip and that person is now friends with their friends, and you get through all of that. You recognize it's not going to change. You've spent your year, you've made your ick list, you get it. You kind of can move on. Now, what if it's family? What if it's family and you are not going to cut the narcissistic family member out of your life, whether it's because that's just not the kind of parent you are. If it's your child or it's not kind of like daughter or son, you are. If it's your parent and every year comes around and it is that person's birthday and it is the holiday time and that person is still in your life, how do you cope with the grief? That's the word that you said. Grief is a huge part of this.

(00:57:14):

Faith goes away really fast, and so part of it is something is downright just preparation in the book, it's called the prepare and release method, which is you've got to prepare for these encounters. You can't go in cold. It's like you're stretching for a workout. You don't just say, I feel like running. Put on the sneakers in your business. Clothes go running down the street. There's a process. You stretch out your muscles, you're going to cramp up. It's the same thing when you're going to see the narcissistic family member, whether you see them every day or once a month or once a year, which is you really sit down and say, this year's going to be no different. This time's going to be no different. They have absolutely no interest in what I have to say. They're going to it all about them and to many of my clients.

 

(00:57:59):

In fact, one of my clients, she said it beautifully when she said, she plays narcissist bingo, and the bingo is like invalidation, ding, gaslight, ding, ding. And she said, it's all I can do to hold back when I get five of them in a row. To not say, bingo, you win and get yourself a present because it's all going to happen. So preparing yourself, you can almost turn it into a little bit of a chuckle like here we go. And I definitely do a lot of narcissist bingo and family systems and I do have to catch myself from smiling. Then people think I'm smirking or I lost my mind. Why are you smiling right now? Mostly I got bingo and I bet myself a dairy queen on the way home that I won. But as much as I'm making light of it is the preparation for what this encounter is going to be like, right?

 

(00:58:49):

Because it will hurt and you will be filled with grief because this person, a parent was supposed to be a parent. And you recognize in that moment the things that still you struggle with because that parent wasn't those things. Instead of being supportive, they were invalidating and on and on and on. And what that means then is the other bookend to this preparation. You go through it, but being prepared, while it won't eradicate the grief, it can sometimes modify. It can definitely bring it down a little bit and say like, okay, that what I expected it to be. Which means the other bookend, the release part is you've got to give yourself downtime afterwards. The best self-care you can do is after the conversation, not have a meeting booked right in there or take a nap or take a shower or take a walk or whatever it is that you do to feel replenished. Again, these have to be intentional processes and when you treat it like that, it puts the harsh glare on like, yeah, this is not healthy. I however, feel whatever duty bound, obligation bound, there's other people in this family system, I actually really care about. You have to keep plugging back into your intention, which is why do I keep interacting with this person? And whatever your reason is, it's fine as long as your reason's not because this time I think it's going to be different.

 

Mel Robbins (01:00:06):

Well, I love that distinction. Basically just coming back to the very simple fact that the only option here is radical acceptance, which is this is the situation,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:00:15):

This is the situation.

 

Mel Robbins (01:00:15):

There is no changing it. And I may hope it's going to change, but it's never going to

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:00:20):

Change.

 

Mel Robbins (01:00:21):

And that's why I feel grief about this. You write about this in your new book, and I found it fascinating that when there is a narcissistic parent, there are typically roles that people tend to fall into in their family that kind of keep this dynamic propped up. Can you talk a little bit about that?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:00:38):

So anytime you have the more dysfunctional the family system, the more we get put into these concrete codified roles instead of having the flexibility of being able to be who we are. So we're not stuck in a role, a narcissistic family system. There's two classical roles. One is the golden child. The golden child is the anointed heir parent, the one who can do no wrong but is sort of the hope of the family. And some families that's it's a son, it's the eldest son because of whatever cultural issues are. Sometimes it's the child that most physically resembles the parent.

 

(01:01:12):

Sometimes it's the child that does the things that the parent wants. They succeed at the sport that the parent wants or whatever it may be. Sometimes it's the kid that's just helpful. It might even be the kid that mixes mom's martini, whatever it is, it's that kid who is the best source of supply, that's the golden child, and all other children will be compared against that child in any home. That's not a single sibling home. But if it's sometimes there's cousins and others that might be compared to that child. The second role that we always see in a narcissistic family system is a scapegoat. This is the child that gets the venom of the narcissistic parent and is really that sort of more of the punching bag. I'd see the golden child's, the pacifier. The scapegoat is the punching bag. And this is the child who may not look the way the parent wants, behave the way the parent wants, doesn't do the things the way the parent wants them to.

 

(01:02:03):

Whatever it may be, may actually be mouthy, may call the parent out, may challenge. The parent may say, well, how come you're not treating us better? And that child will get the wrath of the narcissistic parent or parents. 

(01:02:57):

The rescuer sort of fixer if you will. This is the kid who's sort of always trying to make things right. They clean up after dinner, they make sure everything's running well. They kind of take away all the stressors that could set off the narcissistic parent. They're the one that almost feels anxiety while they hear the parent's car come up, the driver quick, quick, quick. We need to clean up. We need to clean up. You guys. Come on, come on, come on. It's a lot of that anxiety rescuers. They tend to be rescuers well into adulthood. We got to make it better. We got to make it better. They tend to be appeasers, they tend to be those appeasers in the family system through adulthood. The peacekeepers are sort of the diplomats of the family. The rescuers are often doing things like, let's clean up

 

(01:03:38):

The peacekeeper, the diplomat. These are the people that are like, no, no, no, that's not what mom meant. Mom didn't mean that. I think mom, you were trying to tell, you were trying to tell Billy that you kind of liked it, right? And they're constantly trying to get in there. Some really hapless diplomat trying to make peace between countries who don't want it. And the peacekeeper diplomat child is always on edge watching for, so they never get to relax. They're always paying attention. Then there's the invisible child have a big enough narcissistic family system. This is the kid that literally gets forgotten. They may be very independent, they may be very quiet, but they're very forgotten. And oftentimes their interests aren't cultivated. Sometimes they're not even picked up from school. We're talking that invisible and the final, I'm

 

Mel Robbins (01:04:24):

Laughing my husband.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:04:25):

And the final role is something we either call the truth teller or the truth seer. It depends on how much they're telling the truth. Seer truth teller role can overlap with the scapegoat, 

(01:05:50):

And the kid may not even be saying it. It's a very subtle dynamic. But I've worked with a lot of survivors who will say, I knew this was a mess and somehow my parent knew I knew and that really put me in their crosshairs.

 

Mel Robbins (01:06:04):

Is it normal when somebody starts to wake up and see and accept the situation for what it is? Is anger part of this too?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:06:14):

Oh heck yeah. Yeah. Anger is great. Anger is my favorite emotion. Well,

 

Mel Robbins (01:06:18):

Lemme tell you

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:06:18):

Why, please.

 

Mel Robbins (01:06:19):

Because I also think a lot about the fact that if there is a parent that's narcissistic and your parents are still together, there is also a parent that didn't protect you from that person.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:06:31):

That's right. And that's where we start getting into the weeds. So why is anger so great for survivors? Because it's immobilizing emotion. It's an activating emotion. Unlike sadness or anxiety that can create a heaviness or even an apathy. Anger is a let's go emotion, but anger scares us. We think of that anger as being a narcissistic emotion, but in fact, the narcissistic people are rageful, not angry. Anger is great and when something is unjust, anger is what we should feel. This is not okay. Right? Anger is a stage of grief. So anger and grief very much go together. So let's assume that you've got a narcissistic parent and a non narcissistic parent because some people have two narcissistic parents, and all I can say is that I promise there's a special corner of heaven for them. But more often than not, it's a narcissistic parent and a non narcissistic parent.

 

(01:07:24):

And this gets complicated because what many people will say is I'm very aware of the suffering that my non narcissistic parent did endure At times, they were humiliated, they were embarrassed, they were criticized. The real agony is a sense of abandonment that the child feels by that non narcissistic parent thinking like you were the parent. It was your job to keep us safe. And for an adult in that situation, it becomes a very complex set of emotions, whatever that case may be. Sometimes people will say, I get why they didn't fight back, and I get that they were going through their own thing. And then there's often a sense of guilt at being angry at the non narcissistic parent for not fighting harder for them, and then in a sense of anger for feeling abandoned by that person. So when you combine anger and guilt and empathy into a blender, it is one of the most difficult to swallow smoothies you are ever going to taste in your life. What

 

Mel Robbins (01:08:28):

Do

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:08:28):

You

 

Mel Robbins (01:08:28):

Do? I may be seeking personal advice here when the narcissistic parent has died and now they are the golden person and the way in which the narrative about that person is being told publicly is just so glowing and so wonderful. And you see the surviving parent waxing on and on and on about the narcissistic one, and you're sitting there going, that's not true.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:09:01):

Right? So this isn't an interesting kind of a conundrum in some ways. When the narcissistic person is gone, systems are often now willing to sort of hold them up because I think everyone's collectively relieved. So they get to kind of maintain this false narrative of now I can talk about 'em glowingly and I get to look good, which makes you wonder how much of that narcissism infected the entire system because you get to talk about the dead person. They're cool because they're dead and they're not going to be able to keep bothering you and you get to seem like a great grieving person and you're sort of filling the grief role as it were of being the grieving widow or widow or whatever it may be. And different people will approach this differently.

 

(01:09:41):

Some people will say, well, now that person's gone. I'm going to speak my truth and I don't care. Others will feel as though maybe this isn't the time because this person is gone. It's going to be different in every system. But that complicated series of reactions after the death of a narcissistic person who had emotionally or otherwise harmed you, it's not an easy one. And a lot of people say, oh, now they're gone. This is going to be easy. No, I mean there's going to be some maybe pragmatic relief that you no longer need to deal with them and work around them, but now the rest of the system is going to not going to have the same kind of clean series of reactions you do. And so it gets messy, and I think that it's giving yourself space to have the complex grief that a narcissistic loss brings to be in therapy when people will say, do I confront the family? It's back to the tiger's cage.

 

(01:10:32):

What may happen is anytime you confront anyone in a narcissistic family system, and just because a narcissist is dead doesn't mean this is still not a narcissistic family system. The roles are still held. All the toxic patterns are in place. They don't just disappear with the narcissistic person.

 

Mel Robbins (01:10:48):

Well, that's a huge point that you think because now the relationship is over or the person is dead, that all of the wreckage, no, now you're just dealing

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:10:59):

With it. The homage to the narcissist in many ways is that the family system stays exactly the same.

 

Mel Robbins (01:11:04):

Oh, that sucks.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:11:05):

It really sucks.

 

Mel Robbins (01:11:07):

Well, because also thinking about the example that I'm sure so many of you listening can relate, which is you have children with a narcissist. The relationship ends and you not only have to deal with that sort of sense of this isn't fair, this person has moved on, everybody's rallied around them, all is forgiven. I'm sitting here holding the bag, whether it's the hope or I won't allow myself to grieve, but then your kids have their own relationship with this person.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:11:40):

That's right. That's right.

 

Mel Robbins (01:11:41):

What are strategies that you can use when you are in a system that is still active, whether it's because you share children with somebody or because you're part of a family system where there's been narcissistic abuse? How do you protect yourself?

Mel Robbins (01:12:44):

What does that even mean?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:12:45):

It's not your job to convince your kids that their other parent is narcissistic. It's actually not okay. If they come to that awareness themselves, they can share it. You don't want to jump on it like, yeah, isn't he the worst? But that's a lot to take in. Do you want to talk about it? This may not feel the safest place. I hope you do get to explore it. How can I be a support to you as you figure this out? Because it's not easy

 

Mel Robbins (01:13:12):

Though. I would imagine in that scenario that if you are somebody who feels like this isn't just, and your adult kids come around and they finally come to you and say, mom, dad's a narcissist. You're right. Your first reaction is going to be finally, you know what I mean? You're going to say something that's not you will, because that's the justice you're looking for,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:13:38):

Correct? It is the justice you're looking for, but you want to tread lightly because kids feel loyal to their parents, even their narcissistic parents, and they're testing the waters. Don't think they're coming in here to say you're comrades in arms. They're testing the waters. And if you're too enthusiastic, you may be viewed as a problem. But if they say, mom, I'm so sorry. We never made this easier for you. It is so clear. He's narcissistic. We went on this ski trip with him and his new girlfriend. Oh my God. And then again, at the highest level of functioning, you'd say, I mean, do you want to talk about it? Do you not? I understand if you don't feel comfortable about it, but it's a lot. I hear you. I get it by saying I get it. That's really code for, yeah, and then I'm here. But you can have that justice within yourself, Mel. It doesn't have to be a justice parade.

 

Mel Robbins (01:14:35):

Well, I just feel like this is something that's incredibly relatable, very relatable in the earlier episode, even though this is not validated by a scientific study, you basically feel after decades of doing this, that one out of every five or so people display this narcissistic style of personality. So if I think about the fact that 50% of relationships are more in divorce, and I think about the number of people listening that are recognizing that they may have been married to somebody like this, once you deal with your own radical acceptance and you give up hope that anything's going to change and you accept the situation for what it is, and you stop looking for justice and you are in your own healing and you're using the tools in your new book, I would imagine that any parent listening would love to know the best way that they could accelerate the healing of their children. From this. How do you show up both for yourself and for the kids that are being impacted by that parent?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:15:44):

So here's one thing to always remember. Nobody walks away from a narcissistic parent unscathed. It's not possible no matter what. If a person has had a narcissistic parent, it will negatively affect you. Now, in the extreme, obviously it'd be things like complex trauma. Some people with narcissistic parent become narcissistic themselves. We might see things like addiction. In response to that, the vast majority of people who had narcissistic parents developed significant anxiety, anxiety, self-doubt, social anxiety, and all the stuff that goes with that. Am I doing enough? Am I enough? That sort of thing, right? But we'll put that in the bucket of anxiety. So if you are co-parenting in that situation, your kids will be anxious. That's a fact. Okay, that's number one. So let's start there. Number two is don't try to fix it. I think that the big mistake that we make with our kids is we try to solve problems.

 

(01:16:43):

We are not their life coaches. We are not their efficiency coaches. We are their parents and sometimes they're mad at us. They're mad at us for having found this person and having kids with them, and they're never going to be able to put it in that many words. So there are times we will be these children's punching bags. We have different tolerances for that. Some behavior is acceptable, some is not. But it's to be that place where you kids, if they start talking about something, it's not, how can we fix it? How are you feeling? And then you can say, how can I help? And it might be just to listen every kid's different in these situations. And Mel, in the most tragic telling of this story, sometimes your kids a lie with a narcissistic parent. I know many people in the situation where they've lost at least one adult child.

 

(01:17:29):

Narcissistic parents love bomb their kids when they're adults and when they come into young adulthood, now the narcissistic person has made their own supply. It's quite remarkable for them. And the one thing a narcissistic parent will often do if they've got it, is use money. I'll pay your rent. I'll get your apartment, I'll get you a car. And depending on the kid, some kids don't fall for it, but some do. And they may feel a loyalty to that parent. They may feel sorry for that parent, but they also may be calculating themselves. And if the narcissistic co-parent is somebody who is willing to say terrible things about the other parent, then you might have lost this battle. I think that's a very unique situation when people, because you might have multiple kids and some of your kids still have a relationship with you, and some of them have gone over to the narcissistic parent, but people who only have one or two kids and they've all allied with that other parent, that is something that some people say they may not ever be able to fully grieve.

 

Mel Robbins (01:18:29):

You said that the grieving part of this is the hardest part. So what are the tools that you can use to help yourself grieve when you are recovering from a narcissistic relationship?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:18:45):

Number one, recognize it as a loss and in fact, the person going through this kind of loss. I think it's on the level of more complicated even than the loss of a death. So it's the giving yourself grief takes time. When we have a grief laid in loss like a death, we mourn. We think of the Tibetan 49 days. We think of sitting Shiva for loss, for people who've observed the Jewish faith. We think about the various ways it shows up. In some cultures in South Asian culture, we can't touch each other in a certain period of time after there's been a loss in the family. You don't go to a temple, you don't share food together. So it's always going to be different, but those rituals ground us in loss. There are a time when we're allowed to press the stop button on the clock and attend to ourselves. We don't build that time in when it's this kind of grief. So a person has to take that for themselves and build in that kind of time.

 

Mel Robbins (01:19:45):

As I'm thinking about this, the grief has been really helpful as a concept for moving through a narcissistic relationship because it allows you to engage in radical acceptance, give up the hope that it's going to change, and to accept it for what it is. And to me, being able to grieve that either your parent wasn't who you wanted or deserved or your spouse wasn't who you wanted or deserves, to me feels like a mentally healthy response to a situation like this versus the bashing of what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? Which just makes you feel worse,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:20:28):

Correct

 

Mel Robbins (01:20:29):

But what happens when you get stuck in that kind of rumination of why was I so stupid? Why didn't I see this before? Why didn't I move on earlier? 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:20:40):

In a strange way could be a little bit easier, is it's almost like somebody saying, well, why didn't I know the answer to this exam question? I'm like, well, because it was never taught to you. It was never told, we don't teach this in high school. Who too was going to teach you this? Your parents didn't teach you high school, didn't teach you college didn't teach you. I mean, I guess now with the advent of things like YouTube and stuff, people might get it that way, but some people don't even know what it's called. So we're talking about a relatively recent phenomenon that people are understanding what this thing is. So how are you to know it? If every single person around you is telling you, forgive them, they didn't mean it. This is who they are. They didn't mean it when they said it. That's what everyone around you is saying. And then the narcissistic person themselves is saying, I never said that. You are crazy. There's something wrong with you. You make a big deal out of everything. You're too sensitive. If those are the two sets of voices coming at you, how the hell would you have known what this was?

 

Mel Robbins (01:21:46):

It's true. And I feel like a first class jerk now because I have been in situations where even though I've been the victim of narcissistic abuse, you didn't know. I've looked at other people though. I've been like, what's wrong with you? Can't you see this? Why are you still worrying about it? So I apologize to those of you listening that I did that too, because you're right. If you don't know, how are you going to know? But now you do. So let's talk about the grieving process. For those of us that choose to stay in a family system or in a relationship with somebody who we are very clear has a narcissistic personality style, we have accepted it. We have given up hope, but how do we grieve? How do we protect ourselves? What are the tools that we need to be able to remain healthy and separate in a situation where we've accepted the reality?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:22:40):

But I would guess about 50% of people in narcissistic intimate relationships stay in them. So let's talk about the staying, first of all is more common than the leaving. So keep that in mind. But then, so number one, people don't think this is grief in it. It is grief. So treat it as such because what's been taken from you, you've lost hope. You've lost the idea that there would be a someday better. You recognize that your childhood was a mess. You recognize the lost potential within yourself. I think to me, the real tragedy that I see with many clients who go through this is they say, had this been different? Had I had a parent who saw me clearly, who actually stepped out of their selfish haze long enough to sort of see me. I would not be 45 in figuring stuff out in life for the first freaking time that at 45 they feel behind all their peers.

 

(01:23:37):

I wouldn't have been in three wrecked marriages. It's not that they're saying they weren't, and people were taking responsibility like I made the mess. I recognized that, but my God, if I'd been given the right tools, it's like somebody who said, oh, I tried to build a house and all I had was a glue gun and a stapler. I'm like, yeah, no, there's this thing called a drill and all this other stuff. You recognize that holy crap. There are all these tools that some people have, and I still try to make a horse race of it. There's a sadness. So I think that people are grieving the loss of themselves really. If you know David Kessler's work loss has to be gone through. There's no rushing this. What I love about David's work is he talks about the meaning and purpose. We derive meaning more than anything from the process of grief.

 

(01:24:24):

And the same applies in narcissistic relationships. Because I say this to every survivor of narcissistic relationships, my God, you are tougher than hell. So basically, everyone else was running a marathon just on the flat ground, and they sent you on the wrong path, and they put this weird 400 pound backpack on you and said, oh, the marathon goes uphill, and you still finished the marathon. No, you didn't win or get a medal, but my God, you finished. And that there's a toughness of flexibility, a resilience, a discernment, a cleverness, a knowing that survivors of narcissistic abuse have unlike any clinical population I have ever worked with in my career. They're fantastic. I say this as a survivor myself, and I have so much grief, Mel, over how late in the game and still struggle with, you've said some nice things to me today. And more often than not, I've put myself down and I made a joke about it, but I don't know that I'll ever get to a place where I'll ever fully value myself.

 

(01:25:27):

Part of my journey of grief is recognizing that that's never going to get there. And instead, I say, every day I'm going to wake up and I'm going to fight the good fight, and I feel privileged to get to do what I do. But there are holes in me, and some days I grieve those holes, and some days I embrace those holes. I could not do what I do unless I had gone through this. That to me feels like a gift from God, that I was given this gift. I was given a voice that every generation of women before me in my family never got. Narcissism is endemic and patriarchal cultures. So I think to myself, you could have either sat there and felt bad for yourself or say, you've been given an opportunity, but my God, my heart, I didn't know the number of ways a heart could be broken, but you have no idea. There is ways hearts can be broken that are diabolical. And I had experienced a lot of them, didn't know how to get into an adult relationship, and I still show up into a lot of these narcissistic relationships. I am tired, and that's what a lot of survivors say. But what comes out of this grief is that some days are very hard. Many days are great. There are lots of dark nights of the soul. But I finished the marathon even though someone threw that backpack on my back and set me on the uphill track.

 

Mel Robbins (01:26:45):

Well, here's what I want to tell you. That the moment in time that you learn, this is the moment in time when you're ready to hear it and do something about it,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:26:56):

That's exactly right.

 

Mel Robbins (01:26:57):

And as much as this is a very dark and heavy topic you have in your new book, it's not You, practical tools, tremendous research and a huge message of hope that first of all, it's not you. You're not the problem. The second that you practice radical acceptance and you accept it for what it is, and you allow yourself to grieve, which means you are finally giving yourself the validation that you deserve something else. I think there's not only a huge opportunity for what comes next for you, but I feel very hopeful that the louder that you get and the more people talk about this and share your work, the more opportunity there is for people to break the chains of this in their family systems and to do the work, to heal from this kind of abuse, to recognize it when it is happening in your life, to protect yourself from it and to thrive.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:27:56):

Oh, I absolutely believe that. And that's what happens in the healing process, is that the survivors of narcissistic abuse are transformed. You don't allow your sense of self to be stolen the way it had to be. This does not mean you cut yourself out from everyone in your life. It's that when after you heal, as you heal, when you show back up into these spaces in your life, you show up knowing who you are. And through this process, all of you will become truth seers, and you'll navigate your life in a very different way. On

 

Mel Robbins (01:28:28):

Behalf of everybody, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:28:31):

Thank you so much, Mel. Thank you.

 

Mel Robbins (01:28:34):

You are extraordinary. I always learn something from you, and I feel hopeful and empowered and equipped to continue on my journey. And I want to make sure that I tell you that in case no one else tells you that I believe in you and I love you, and I believe in your ability to take the tools that you've just learned, heal yourself, and create a better life. And thank you, thank you, thank you to you. Thank you for being here with me on YouTube. I love you. I believe in you. And please, please, please take a moment, subscribe to this channel. It really helps me. Please share this episode with people that you know it will help. And I know that you now are thinking about the relationships in your life based on what you just learned from Dr. Ramani. You're going to want to watch this next repairing a broken relationship. It's not too late with an amazing expert by the name of Joshua Coleman.