How to Stop Procrastinating, According to the World’s Leading Expert (It’s Not What You Think)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (00:02):

Do not listen to the current media people who are coming out and saying pro procrastination. There's a good side to procrastination. Are we born this way? No. What? 20% of adult men and women are chronic procrastinators that's higher than depression. Substance abuse, panic attacks, alcoholism. This is somebody who will not RSVP on time and wait until the gauge goes on empty before they get more gas or get the third bill before they pay it. That's me for them. That's me. Yeah, of course. 20 minutes. What do you mean? Of course you showed up 20 minutes late.

 

Mel Robbins (00:41):

What happens in your brain when you procrastinate?

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (00:44):

Why are you going there? The least effective technique, the technique that will not work with procrastinators is time management. What works is,

 

Mel Robbins (00:58):

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so glad you tuned in today because today you and I have a doozy of a topic. This is something we all struggle with. What are we talking about? The big P procrastination. That's right. We're going there. Is procrastination, a coping mechanism? How do I stop? How do I focus? How can I help someone I love who is a procrastinator? Why the hell do I do it when I know it's not good for me? I feel like I do my best work when I'm under pressure. Is that procrastination? I'll tell you what I want to know the answers to these questions, don't you? I bet you do. My mission for you and me today is for us to understand what is procrastination. Exactly. Now, I brought in the best of the best, Dr. Joseph Ferrari.

 

(01:48):

I can tell you right now, this professor is fast like a Ferrari. He has got one hell of a personality. And I got to be honest with you, when I thought about the world's leading expert on procrastination, I did not think about the word personality. But boy oh boy, does he have a big one? And he's also warned me that once he gets going, he revs that engine up and he just can't stop. So who is Dr. Joseph Ferrari? He's a renowned psychologist and professor of psychology at DePaul University. He's an international researcher, author of seven bestselling books on this topic, and he is here to get you moving forward. Dr. Joseph Ferrari is here to cut through the crap and deliver you the truth. He's going to tell you that you can unlearn it and he's going to give you tools that you can start using today to stop procrastinating and to actually overcome it for good.

 

(02:39):

Why? Because you don't have to live the rest of your life doing this to yourself. You can stop hating yourself for never following through and you can start doing your best work. There is a solution to procrastination and our guest today is going to teach it to you. This episode will enlighten, inform and inspire you to change once and for all. And yes, this is the biggest takeaway regarding the science change is possible. So let's not procrastinate on jumping into this any further. We're going to just let it rip. Please help me welcome Professor Joseph Ferrari to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (03:17):

Thank you for inviting me.

 

Mel Robbins (03:18):

So let's just start with the question. What is procrastination?

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (03:22):

Okay, procrastination is not the same as delaying. If I'm stuck on the tarmac, my plane isn't getting off and I'm four hours late for some appointment, I didn't procrastinate. That's delay. It's not the same as pondering. Pondering is to pause and to stop and think because you're actively thinking about what should I be doing. It's a misperception that procrastination is poor time management. What is the procrastination? It's the intentionally intentional delay of a target task that is irrational and prevents you from reaching your goal. So you are purposely not doing something and it doesn't make any sense to do that, and it's going to prevent you from reaching a goal and people feel uncomfortable about it and it's maladaptive. Do not listen to the current media people who are coming out and saying, oh, there is procrastination. There's a good side to procrastination. Rain. True.

Mel Robbins (05:33):

So Dr. Ferrari, you said it's the intentional delay, which made me wonder, do you have to know that you're doing it?

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (05:43):

I need to clarify for you something everybody procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator.

 

Mel Robbins (05:50):

What's the difference?

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (05:53):

Thank you very much. 20% of adult men and women are chronic procrastinators. And as a research psychologist, those are the people I want to study. 20%. Now you might say that's all Ferrari that's higher than depression, substance abuse, panic attacks, alcoholism, right? And yet we treat this humorously. I procrastinate. Well, do you procrastinate on one task then you procrastinate? Or do you procrastinate on a variety of things that makes you a procrastinator? 20% of men and women know significant gender difference. 20% of people will not RSVP on time and wait until the gauge goes on empty before they get more gas or get the third bill before they pay it. They're going to miss your birthday and your anniversary and Christmas and you'll get the cards later if you get anything and all that. 

Mel Robbins (6:54):

That's me

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (6:54):

For them.

 

Mel Robbins (6:55):

That's me.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (6:56):

Yeah, of course.

 

Mel Robbins (06:58):

What do you mean of course, that's me

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (06:59):

You showed up 20 minutes late. 

 

Mel Robbins (07:01):

No I did not. We had a schedule and the schedule was to start the pre-interview at 10 o'clock because most guests tend to be a little overwhelmed and a little nervous because of the reach of this show. And so we have a process in place. I was not intentionally delaying. I'll defend myself there.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (07:21):

I expect that I'd see you right away, but irrelevant. But it's a good example, a good example of what we're talking about. How would someone else know that

 

Mel Robbins (07:30):

That's true? And

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (07:31):

So unless they're told that, alright, and then the person who shows up late says, this is what's going on. And that's believable because procrastinators are very good. As I was saying, good excuse makers, they always have a reason and it's logical and it makes sense. The problem is the next time the same thing happens and the next time or in another setting. So that's what makes us suspicious after a while when we say, wait a minute, it's never your fault. It's never your fault. I don't know you. So I'm not saying this is true of you. Please, please do not be offended. I'm trying to explain how this is a good case of what we're talking

 

Mel Robbins (08:08):

About. Yes, I agree. So let me ask another question. So how do you know if in fact you are a chronic procrastinator, that you're part of that 20%? What are some of the signs so that somebody can go, this is beyond just a funny thing or something that frustrates me. This is something I really need to sit up and pay attention to.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (08:32):

Okay, so yes, again, this is somebody who RSVPs shows up late who may show up consistently to different events, misses sporting events and concerts because they never get the ticket on time. They're going to be late for gifts, drive their car on fumes because they're always late getting the gas or whatever they may need. So you notice in a variety of settings, and if you find yourself doing it at home, at school, at work, in relationships that you're always doing this way then. And if other people can get annoyed by you and tell you that you're a procrastinator, you may be a chronic procrastinator. You're doing it in across time and across space in science. That's what we look for for consistency. Does it happen from day to day or time to time? And does it happen across location to location, time and space. So you have to see how Well now if it's only one task, I really don't like doing the dishes

 

Mel Robbins (09:40):

I

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (09:40):

Really don't like. For me, it's cutting the grass. I am dressed like I'm going to go cut the grass. So I have all these excuses. It's been raining and it looks like it's going to rain again today. But I'm not a procrastinator at all. You ask me to do something, you'll get it done. But that's something I will delay doing. Ask yourself, do you do this in different locations at different times? Have people told you that you're delayed? And as I said, this is men and women. There's no significant gender difference. This is young and old, urban and rural, different cities and the farm areas and the rural areas. No difference. All races, there is a difference between white collar and blue collar. White collar, procrastinate more. Let me make your listeners understand, because I understand you have a lot of countries here that this is not just a US thing.

 

(10:25):

This is not only a western culture because I've collected data with colleagues in Britain, Australia, Canada, Germany, Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Ireland, Italy, Peru, Venezuela, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Japan, South Korea. We're currently doing Iran and I'm doing some more studies with people in Turkey and I'm finding 20%. Wow. So this is really global. Now the next question is, well then is this genetic? Are we just human nature? Are we born this way? No, no, we're not born progress. Oh yeah. Some people will say, well there's nothing I can do about it. That's just who I am. I'm always, no, no. You learned to be a procrastinator

 

Mel Robbins (11:13):

From who?

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (11:13):

You can unlearn it. Oh, from dads. But we'll get dads here first.

 

(11:18):

Yeah. So you learn to be a procrastinator. Alright, so you can unlearn it. That's very optimistic. That means you're not condemned this way. Yes, you can teach old dogs new tricks. You just use a different bone and it takes them longer. But you can unlearn it if you are born that way. If that's just who you are, then let's, then you're screwed day, then it's over, then nothing can do it. And that's unfortunately, too much of our culture is this way. Well, that's how they are. That's how people are. No, no. People can change. Let's be much more optimistic.

 

Mel Robbins (11:52):

Dr. Ferrari

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (11:54):

In my rambling,

 

Mel Robbins (11:55):

Hold on. I need to tell you something.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (11:58):

Okay,

 

Mel Robbins (11:59):

I

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (12:00):

Love you. Thank you. Don't tell my wife, but that's okay.

 

Mel Robbins (12:04):

I love you because I believe the same thing. Of course you can fricking change. Yeah, it's hard, but of course you can. And so what you just said made me take a deep breath because I a thousand percent fall into the category of being a chronic procrastinator.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (12:29):

Do you mind sharing a little bit what that means to you? Please, publicly. Are you okay?

 

Mel Robbins (12:33):

Oh, of course. Absolutely. So all the way back to my academic career at Dartmouth College and Boston College Law School, every single paper was an all-nighter. Every single test was a cram session. I was late to every class. You asked me to do something. I'll forget when you said birthdays. The bane of my existence is that I forget birthdays. I hate that about myself. I literally hate it about myself. Anniversaries come up on me with my husband. We've been married for 27 years now.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (13:19):

Congratulations.

 

Mel Robbins (13:20):

I forget to book plane tickets. I leave something on a plane everywhere I go. And I also have dyslexia. I also have been diagnosed with a DHD. And so I have this story that there's nothing I can do about it. And that in some ways when I think about the creative process, that I need this burst of adrenaline. Like there's something about the last minute scramble that gets my ass going and gets my brain churning. And I don't know if that's a story. I don't know if that's a habit. I don't know what the hell it is, but it drives me crazy. It makes me mad that I'm terrible at time management. It makes me embarrassed when I'm late. My husband calls it Mel time and let's say we have to be out at a dinner with friends at six o'clock. The drive is 10 minutes.

 

(14:10):

It is 20 minutes to six. Chris is dressed, he's already fed the dogs. He is walking toward the car. I am running around looking for my phone. I have one shoe on. I go into the bedroom and now I think I have time to make three calls and make the bed and change my clothes. And Chris literally will be sitting in the car in the driveway while I am running around the house like a lunatic, trying to find things. And it never equated the last minute scramble actually with procrastinating. I equated it with poor planning, with

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (14:51):

Excuse making,

 

Mel Robbins (14:52):

Excuse making. I got to shut up. I got to let you go on. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (14:57):

True. When you stop, I've got a whole bunch of stuff to say, but keep going.

 

Mel Robbins (15:01):

What I procrastinate on is paperwork. I miss paying bills. I lose my credit cards all the time. I constantly without a cord charger for my phone, my gas tank, I feel like my form of gambling is to see how far I can go. And then I'm like, why do I do this to myself? And it's this constant battle.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (15:28):

Alright, may I jump in now, Ms. Robbins?

 

Mel Robbins (15:32):

Yes, you may. Dr. Ferrari.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (15:34):

So you said quite a few things. So thank you for sharing with us all of these items. And in no particular order, I've jotted down some things as you were saying them. So I want to go through them. You started off by telling us about your academic procrastination. Alright? What I have found is that 70% of college students will delay writing, studying, going to that mentor, doing all these things, and 70%. Now remember everybody procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator.

(17:00):

Okay? And for those who are not familiar, a meta-analysis a scientist takes previously published studies, takes all of them, enters them into a formula and looks to see what's most effective based on these bodies of literature. Two of them have been done on interventions to deal with procrastination. The least effective technique. The technique that will not work with procrastinators is time management. What works is CBT, cognitive behavior therapy because you need to change the procrastinator's way of thinking, cognitive and the way they act because it's not a question of time management. Time management, stop. It's not going to work. Change the way you think, the way you act. How do we do

 

Mel Robbins (17:50):

That?

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (17:51):

Well, you start with this.

 

Mel Robbins (17:52):

You read the book, still procrastinating. Awesome.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (17:55):

You start with the book and then you go find a good PhD, clinical psychologist who's cognitive behaviorally trained, and you stop the excuse making. One of the things I talk about is they're very good at the but howevers. Oh yes, I was going to do that, but I would could have that. However, so your listener who's a chronic, well listen to this, go, well, that was very interesting. That was entertaining. But in my case, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, I really, I understand. However, for me, you look as you know, the concept of, well, lemme write something else down please, if that's okay.

 

Mel Robbins (18:33):

Sure.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (18:34):

There are three myths and you touched on one of them about procrastination. And that is, I work best under pressure. You told me about that one too. I got to wait till the last minute. Do these procrastinators, do they work best in the pressure? The short answer is no. Alright, so we brought 'em in the lab. We had them work on a series of tasks and experiments and a series of studies. They had more errors. They did last. But when you asked them, how did you do? I did great. I did so much better than everybody else. Alright, so you don't work best on the pressure. That's one of the myths. You don't work best on the pressure you think you do, but you actually do more failure, thrill seeking. And I heard a D, HD and other, there's only been one study ever looking at a DHD and procrastination. And I did that in the nineties with three samples, two normal and one clinical sample of people diagnosed with A D, HD and found no relationship.

 

Mel Robbins (19:33):

What do you blame it on?

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (19:35):

On yourself? Why didn't you manage your time? You can't manage time. Indecision is a form of procrastination. It's a cognitive form. It's called decisional procrastination. 

(20:31):

Holiday season's coming up. If I wait till Christmas Eve, I get 70% off, I get 80%. Why should I shop earlier? I better wait till the last minute because look at what I'm going to get. In fact, give me a gift card and I'll go after Christmas and I'll get even more because people aren't stupid. I say flip it baby. I say do it the other way around. Make that 70, 80% off Thanksgiving time and then it gets less and less and less. And if you wait till Christmas Eve, there's a 20% surcharge. April 15th, taxes. Why should I pay my taxes earlier? There's no incentive. No. If I have to pay, let's just say the person has to pay. Well I'm going to send it in on April 12th. April 14th, I'm going to do it the last minute. No government's got it wrong. Again, reward for doing early. We have to reward for doing early, not punish. I'm not in favor of punishing for being

 

Mel Robbins (21:28):

Late. That makes sense. So how do you as an individual that recognizes that you are a procrastinate apply rewarding being early to your own life?

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (21:42):

We can talk about that. But let me also clarify from the beginning. I'm not a clinical psychologist, alright? And so I don't believe as a research psychologist that we should be doing street corner philosophy like this. Tell me the magic bullet because that isn't how life is. You need to understand the person and their dynamics. Alright, asking me as everybody does, just tell me the cure. Thank you for the causes, thank you for the consequences. But I want the cures. Well, life isn't like that, but I'm going to respect your question in terms of asking of that. 

(22:39):

So you don't like doing the dishes. Okay, so you say to yourself, I'm going to wash these five dishes. If I wash these five dishes, then I'm going to watch real a fortune for five minutes, whatever the heck it is that you like. If I do 10 dishes, I do 10 minutes. So you're making something you like to do as a reinforcer for something you don't like to do. Been around a long time. Alright, that's called the Premack principle. Public posting another thing from the sixties that was around or sixties and seventies. Very easy today, publicly post research is found years ago that if you publicly post something in those days, it was a piece of paper outside your office door, or excuse me, something like that so people could see it. Some high traffic area, this is what I'm going to do, this is what needs done. Then you're much more likely to do that than not today with social media. Use it, say publicly, post it to your friends, guys, I need to do this and this is what I do. And if I don't do it, don't let me buy the tickets to the concert. I can't come out with you Friday night to go to the bar. Okay? And hold me to that. There's a fundamental question that is like, why do people do this?

 

Mel Robbins (23:48):

Yes. Why?

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (23:51):

Yeah, it's so maladaptive. Ferrari, I hear you now there's these myths and it's irrational and it prevents me. Alright?

 

Mel Robbins (23:59):

And it causes pain.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (24:00):

And it causes pain for you and others. And by the way, another set of studies we done, procrastinators don't like other procrastinators. They don't want to hang out with them. They blame them for the failures of everything. Yeah, very interesting. So if you are a procrastinator and you think I'll get sympathy from other procrastinators, you're not. I am so frigging tired. I am so tired of people thinking it's time management and just you're lazy. You're not lazy, you are working, you're butt off doing something else. You're not lazy. If I take my time doing something, if I don't meet the deadline and I delay, then I can simply say I didn't have enough time. I know this is not the best thing, this is as good as I can get it. But if I had more time, I would've done better. So lack of effort is not a positive image, but it's a better image than I did it. And it's a piece of garbage if you put something together. And so people would rather have other people think that they lack effort. Hence I procrastinate then lack ability because I can't change ability the next time I can try harder. So there's this attribution tendency that people have chronic procrastinated prox would rather have are very concerned about what we call their social esteem. As a social psychologist, procrastinators very concerned about protecting their social esteem. Now you know what self-esteem is. That's how I feel about myself.

 

(25:26):

Social esteem is how others feel about me and I would rather have others think I lack effort. I want to maintain a good image with them. I want them to like me. Some researchers these days are calling it self-regulation failure. What does that mean? It's a new name for an old concept called delay of gratification. What these researchers are saying is that people procrastinate because they can't regulate the pleasure they want the immediate pleasure now and they can't delay it to the future. So they're unable to self-regulate. Well I agree with that, but that's not the only reason. People tend to either choose or claim two Cs, choose or claim handicaps in life. What does that mean? They choose to put something in their way. I was just talking to a person yesterday and the person was saying that their teenage son loves pizza but also is pretty good on basketball. So if he doesn't think he's going to win that night, he eats a pizza. If he does poorly, he can say, yeah, I lost. I shouldn't have had that pizza. See, it's not me that I didn't have the skill to show it was the pizza. So people will choose handicaps or they claim handicaps. They'll say I'm shy. I'm just saying that's the literature says it's not my fault. It's that thing. But life is interesting.

 

Mel Robbins (26:47):

I want to ask you a question though, because you just use the quote, choosing a handicap by saying I'm shy, which I'm sure everybody listening that feels like they're introverted or shy or has social anxiety went, but I am, but I am.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (27:05):

What does that mean? I am. Did you learn that? Is there a gene for that?

 

Mel Robbins (27:10):

I have no idea.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (27:11):

There's no gene for it. It's a learned tendency. So that is the way you are. Now, I am not dissing you. I am saying you can change and isn't that amazing? You're not born that way. Don't tell me that is how I am. Say that is how I am now. I can be different. I can be better. We have 70 years, 80 if we're strong. Yeah, that's all you got. Why are you procrastinating? Leave a legacy. Make the world better. Ms. Robbins. I hope that's what you're doing here with your podcast series. You are making the world a little better for those who are listening.

 

Mel Robbins (27:49):

Are there different types of procrastinators?

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (27:52):

The answer is no. But there is behavioral and cognitive. The cognitive procrastinator is the indecisive, the decisional. We called them in the field. Decisional, procrastinate, procrastinator. Why would somebody engage in decisional procrastination? Because it's beautiful. I live out here in the western suburbs of Chicago. There's a movie theater with 31 movies. Now imagine going to the movies with an indecisive friend. What would happen? You'd walk up and they would look and they'd say, I dunno. And you say, come on, what do you want to see? And what did they tell you?

 

Mel Robbins (28:33):

I don't know.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (28:35):

I don't know. And you go, come on, come on, pick one. Now this is a brilliant move on these people's part because what happens? You decide and you decide. Now if the movie is great, when you leave, everybody's happy. But if the movie's a dud, what are they going to tell you afterwards?

 

Mel Robbins (28:51):

That was a terrible choice. Yeah,

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (28:52):

You picked it. It was terrible. You made me waste $14. Why'd you ever pick that? Why did we go there for a vacation that was terrible. Why did we ever buy that car? I think it sucks. What's the matter with that dining room table? I never wanted that kitchen set. You see, the problem with the indecisive is they let other people do it. I call it in my book, bailing them out. It's okay to let other people, if you want to not make a decision, you have every right not to do it.

 

Mel Robbins (29:19):

Not making a decision is a decision.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (29:22):

That's true. And therefore shut up. In other words, you don't have the right to complain afterwards. You ffe your right, you gave up your ability to complain about it. If you let someone else make the decision, you got to live with that indecisive. I'm sorry. Alright, you had a chance.

 

Mel Robbins (29:38):

I think this is an area where tons of people struggle.

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (29:41):

And

 

Mel Robbins (29:42):

When people write in and say, I am stuck. I don't know what to do with my

 

Dr. Joseph Ferrari (29:47):

Life. The first thing is you limit the options. You don't take the indecisive to 31 movies, you take 'em away. There's only a couple. You don't bring them to a smorgasbord buffet because they'll stand there and go, oh my God, look at all the food you go eat. Okay, no, you limit the options for the indecisive, do the math as they say. There are pro and con list also not considered effective. But if you do this twist to pro and con list, it works. You create the pros and con list and don't just look at which one's longer. Look at