Episode: 121

Outsmart a Narcissist: A Proven 4-Step Plan to Take Your Power Back

with Rebecca Zung

Learn to take your power back in any toxic relationship.

In this episode, you will get the 4-part plan to help you stay in your power and win when dealing with narcissism.

Rebecca Zung, a top-ranked trial lawyer, has studied narcissists so that she could win against them in the courtroom.

She’s giving you all her best tips (there are too many to count) so you can confidently handle narcissistic behavior in your life.

Listen on:

Once you stand in your authentic power, they can’t touch you.

Rebecca Zung

Featured Clips

Transcript

Mel Robbins (00:00:00):

I thought I knew what a narcissist was, but I didn't.

Rebecca Zung (00:00:03):

A narcissist is not what you think. A narcissist is not a person who thinks so highly of themself. They will take themselves down to take the other person down. You actually become physiologically addicted to this person. Everything is black and white. Everything's good or bad. You're either for them or against them. And if you're against them, then you are public enemy number one.

Mel Robbins (00:00:29):

What are the phases of a narcissistic relationship?

Rebecca Zung (00:00:33):

They call it love bombing. Let's get married in Vegas. Let's move in together. Get me on your bank accounts. Now they've gotten you and their stories aren't holding up. Now you start to see lies. Now you start to see manipulation. I suddenly found myself in this situation feeling like I'm going crazy. Honestly, it almost took me to my knees. It was in that moment. I decided that's it. I'm getting out of this thing. You and you alone define your value. You can win.

Mel Robbins (00:01:09):

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I want to start off by just thanking you so much for being here with me today and to just acknowledge you because I know when you tune in and you spend time with your friend Mel Robbins, you are investing time in yourself and improving your life. And I just think that is so cool. And today in particular, I am thrilled that you showed up because you and I are going to have a powerful and a life-changing conversation, and I can promise you that because we're going to be talking about a topic that is the single most requested topic that I get from listeners in 194 countries. What is the topic? I'm so glad you asked. Here it is. It's narcissism, but specifically, how do I deal with narcissistic people that are in your life and not lose my power?

(00:02:09):

See, here's the thing about narcissism. There is so much amazing information out there about the dangers of narcissistic people and why you need to end relationships with narcissist. But ending a relationship with somebody, it's not always that realistic, right? So that's not what we're going to talk about today

Mel Robbins (00:02:27):

Because sometimes in fact, oftentimes the narcissist is somebody that you're close to. The narcissistic person is your mom or your dad, or maybe it's one of your kids or your brother or your sister. And despite what the experts recommend, you don't want them out of your life and kind of plan the defense and pretending that you don't care. It's getting exhausting. Or maybe you just can't end the relationship right now, for example, the narcissistic person, it's your boss and you need the paycheck, but you don't know how to deal with them. Or maybe it's your ex and you guys have kids together.

(00:03:04):

And so you're going to see this person over and over year after year after year at family gatherings or maybe the narcissistic person is your daughter-in-law or your son-in-law. And if you cut them off, you're not going to see your son or your grandchildren. So today, you and I are going to learn strategies and tools for dealing with the narcissism that you encounter every single day. And this is something that I'm dealing with. And so I have a hunch that you're dealing with it too with somebody that you care about. And so I have a very simple mission today. My mission is to empower you with knowledge and to equip you with tools and strategies, things that are proven that you can use to get on the offense instead of feeling like you're on the defense all the time because there is something you can do.

(00:03:53):

And that's why I cannot wait to introduce you to the expert. I have tracked this expert down and she is here to teach you how to understand, deal with, negotiate against, and even get what you want from the narcissistic people in your life, your mom, your dad, your daughter-in-law, your boss. They're going to have no idea what hit them when you're done listening to this. So the expert today is Rebecca Zung. And Rebecca literally wrote the book on this topic. The book is called Slay the Bully, how to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win. And here's what I really love about her take on this topic. She's a trial lawyer. I'm a former trial lawyer. I love people who think like lawyers. And on this topic of narcissism, she's not taking a clinical approach. She's attacking this topic like a litigator. She's advocating for you.

(00:04:44):

And you know what? She's showing up to win. She is one of the top ranked trial lawyers in the United States, and Rebecca became an expert in this topic because she needed to get a strategy. See, she's been researching narcissism for decades. Why? So she could understand the narcissism that she was seeing in opponents and outsmart them in the courtroom. She wanted to know how they thought, how they think, their psychological disposition, and that's how she became an expert in this topic. And she's here to teach you how a narcissistic person thinks, acts how to identify their emotional cycles and reactions. And also, and this is the really good part, their tactics so that you can rise above it so that you don't get sucked into it. And if you pay attention and you apply what you learn, this is not just a listening podcast, it's a learning one. You will also master Rebecca's four part proven strategy for negotiating with narcissistic people in your life. And if you do that, you're going to win every single day. All those little battles you're going to win. There is so much to cover. So get your pen out, clear your schedule for the next hour because court is in session and on the docket today, everything you need to know to deal with and win with the narcissistic people in your life. So please without further ado, help me welcome Rebecca Zung to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Rebecca Zung (00:06:13):

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Mel Robbins (00:06:17):

I'm so excited to talk to you. I know that we're all going to learn a lot and I want to jump right in. My mission in speaking to you today is to give somebody who is listening to your story and to all of the tools and strategies and insights that you are about to share about identifying a narcissist in your life and learning how to negotiate with them and keep your sanity and your power intact. What I want to understand is after 20 years of litigating high net worth divorces and battling with narcissists day in and day out, can you explain how you now think about narcissism based on your experience for decades, your personal experience and all of this extensive research that you've now done on narcissism? How do you think about the definition of a narcissist?

Rebecca Zung (00:07:15):

So a narcissist is not what you think. A narcissist is not a person who thinks so highly of themself. It is a person who absolutely has no feeling of value internally about themselves feeling of value. So they have to get all of their feeling of value from external sources, which is image, mostly things related to image, which is the prestigious friends, the big houses, the money, the big cars, all of that degrading people, devaluing people, manipulating people and pushing people down in order to make themselves feel better. But it's an endless amount that they need because they can never get enough. It's completely scarcity based. It's all of that. And you are left feeling totally and completely empty in that, yet they're still starving. They can never get enough.

Mel Robbins (00:08:20):

Rebecca, just listening to you, I just exhaled having dealt with narcissists in my life. I mean, it's exhausting. You do feel alone, you feel empty because if you've ever had that experience where you're like, am I going crazy? Why is this person always making me feel like I'm the problem? And then they still want more. No matter what you do.

(00:08:42):

We're going to get into how narcissism is formed. This is fascinating stuff that you need to know. You are absolutely going to learn all of the things that Rebecca's going to teach you, the words that you should say that diffuse a narcissist, her four step plan that will help you get what you want even if you're dealing with a narcissist in your life. But before we go there, could you just tell the person listening what's available to them? I think you get so beaten down when you're dealing with narcissism in your life that you do believe you're the problem. You do believe that something's wrong with you. And if you're listening to my words and you are feeling used and exhausted or scared, Rebecca, I want you to explain to the person listening, what could their life look like? Where could their life be if they take the time to learn the tools and the strategies that you're about to teach them so that you can keep your sanity intact, you can stand up to the narcissist in your life when it's important to do so and so that you don't get so sucked in to the way that they go about life.

(00:09:56):

I think that's part of the problem, is that their strategies work, which is why we get so turned around.

Rebecca Zung (00:10:01):

I want to start with you standing in your authentic power. And I love the concept of the Wizard of Oz, and I want to start with that because I just think it's so beautiful, which is that the wizard is really the narcissist in a way, which is this big head. He pretends he's something that he's not, and he's actually this feeble little man who's afraid. And that's really what a narcissist is. And to me, you're like Dorothy, who's trying to find yourself. You're trying to figure out who you actually are. And what you're really trying to get to is Glinda, who knows who she is the whole time. And to me, she's sort of like your soul. There's a very subtle part of the movie, which is where Glinda is talking to the gang and the wicked witch comes around and she flies near Glenda. I dunno if you remember where she says to the wicked witch, go away. You have no power here. Do you remember that?

Mel Robbins (00:11:17):

Yes.

Rebecca Zung (00:11:18):

That's where you're going. That's where you're going. That's that authentic power. When you can stand in your authentic power, to me, it's aligned with source. When you are aligned with source, you know who you are and you are in your purpose. What people need to know is once you know who you truly are, you stand in your authentic power. And then that's the narcissist is like, go away. You have no power here.

Mel Robbins (00:11:49):

Ooh, I love that. You love that idea that you could stand in your and be like, go away. Go away little narcissist. And that's exactly what's happened to me. I have somebody who is very narcissistic in my life. I am not getting them out of my life, but everything you're about to learn has helped me stand in my power so they have no power over me. And that's exactly what you're going to get out of this conversation today. So that's incredible. Thank you for taking the time to explain that, Rebecca. And now that we know where we're going and what's available to you to be able to stand in your full power and be like, bye-bye, narcissist. I want to start with this. So Rebecca, you've spent 20 years as one of the top ranked lawyers, literally battling, negotiating, litigating with narcissists. You have written three books on the subject. You have studied this so that you can win, and you have identified that there are three different types of narcissists. And for you listening, this is a really important place for us to start because

Mel Robbins (00:12:52):

Awareness is critical to changing anything for the better. And when you know that there are three different types, it's much easier to spot. And then you know what, you're going to be able to stand in your power and use the strategies and not get hooked into this. So Rebecca, let's talk about the three types of narcissists that you've been researching.

Rebecca Zung (00:13:09):

Well, the three most common ones that you hear about are the covert, grandiose, and malignant, and there's other types of narcissists, and there's even a healthy narcissism as well. So I want to make sure that I'm clear on that. It's not that those are the only types. Well, let me start with the grandiose, which is the type that I just sort of described, which is the one that everybody normally thinks of as a narcissist. It's the one that's sort of in your face, the one that's bragging about themselves, the one that is more impulsive, the grandiose is the one that everybody thinks of as a narcissist. I kind of think of it as your garden variety narcissist. And to me, they're the easiest ones to spot. So the covert narcissist is the one that to me in some ways is the stealthiest in some ways is the more dangerous because they're the ones that are passive aggressive.

(00:14:14):

They're your humanitarians. They're the oftentimes clergy, oftentimes doctors, lawyers, everybody thinks they're so nice. Everybody thinks they're so wonderful. Many times they present themselves as victims. Oh my gosh, life isn't fair. And so everybody rushes to take care of them, or they're the ones who agree to do things in your face. Oh yes, of course I'll do that, but then they don't. Or they take credit for your work. It's like this underlying rage. There's right underneath the surface, there's this rage and jealousy that only you sort of see, but everybody else thinks that they're so nice and so wonderful, but you are just constantly subjected to this underlying sort of thing. And you can't really quite put your finger on it, but you just know that there's always sort of this something, these little comments, these little jabs, oh, what's the name of your book again, I can never quite remember or things like that. Oh, I'm so happy for you. Oh, that's so nice. But when you go to tell somebody about it, it's not quite enough for people to go, oh, okay. Most people think, oh, I'm sure that was inadvertent. Oh, well, she's so nice. I can't imagine that they really meant that. But you just know that taken together as a whole, collectively, it's just you feel like you're going crazy.

Mel Robbins (00:15:56):

Can you give us an example? Give us an example because you actually dealt with one, because I'm sitting here trying to rack my brain, okay, do know a covert passive aggressive narcissist? What am I looking for? Yes,

Rebecca Zung (00:16:06):

Absolutely. So they will start seeding their smearing, for example, in a divorce maybe six months prior. So here's a way that they'll do that. They might start to say, I am so concerned about Johnny and his drinking. I'm just so concerned about him. So they couch their concern. They're smearing in terms of concern,

(00:16:39):

Just so worried, so worried about him like that to a neighbor or to a friend. I'm just so concerned. And so they start this down early, early on, and then by the time the divorce actually happens, then Johnny has a full-blown drinking problem. Well, I've been talking to you about this for months. Well, you'll testify for me against him in the divorce for custody. Now, won't you? I mean, I've been telling you for months, he's got a drinking problem. Now. He probably has no problem with drinking whatsoever, but they've been laying this foundation about concern and care, and they do it in such a way that is so plausible, and so they seem like they're such a good person. They're like little things like an email chain that you get left off of and all of a sudden you're not in a meeting that you should have been on. And there they are on an important meeting for work. And clients are like, oh, how come you weren't on that meeting? You're like, well, I didn't get the, oh, I really thought you were. I don't know how I missed you being on that email chain. I really thought you were on that. I'm sorry. Taking credit for your work, seeing people on particular interviews and using your own quotes that very clearly are yours and that sort of thing.

Mel Robbins (00:18:42):

Let's go to the third one. So you said there's the grandiose, the covert, passive aggressive narcissist. What was the third

Rebecca Zung (00:18:48):

Malignant is malignant narcissists tend to just be, they're the ones that have no problem just completely ruining your life. This is the one that will honestly just accuse you of being a child molester, and you've never touched a child whatsoever. This is the one that will stalk you. They will threaten you the violence. And by the way, there can be combinations of the types of narcissists as well.

Mel Robbins (00:19:24):

That's kind of scary. But let's keep going. And here's where I want our conversation to go next. One thing that changed my life forever when it comes to narcissism is understanding the origin of narcissism in somebody, because we throw the word around, and you may believe that somebody just chooses to be a narcissist. That's not what happens. And Rebecca, you decided to dig into the psychology. And what I love about how you've researched this topic is you thought about it like a lawyer and lawyers dig into the cases. They dig into the evidence, they dig into the precedent. And you wanted to learn about the psychology of narcissism and where it begins and how it affects somebody's ability to think how it affects their emotions, because that's critical to you being a badass in the courtroom. And so you dug into the topic of the psychology of a narcissist with the lens of, I got to know how to win. So I got to understand how somebody comes to be like this and how this impacts their emotions and their logic and their thinking. And what you discovered and how you explain it, I think is really cool. So let's go there. Now, when you were researching the psychology of origin, like how someone becomes narcissistic, and obviously this is a spectrum, what did you discover?

Rebecca Zung (00:20:49):

Yeah, so what I found out, and I found this to be really, really fascinating, is that it's a result of trauma and what happens with the brain when we are exposed to trauma...

Rebecca Zung (00:21:07):

We have a stress response. What happens to all of us is when we are in stress, it activates our sympathetic nervous system. So we go into fight or flight when that happens, and our brains release hormones, mostly adrenaline and cortisol when that happens. So as children, when that happens, and it happens on a regular basis or a continuous basis, it can actually cause arrested development in the limbic system, part of a child's brain in the part of the brain that is responsible emotions for the emotional regulation for a child. And so what happens is as they grow, while the prefrontal cortex part of their brain can continue to develop, there can actually develop a lag between the prefrontal cortex, which is the reasoning part of the brain, the judgment part of the brain, and the emotional center part of the brain, which is the limbic system part of the brain.

Mel Robbins (00:22:31):

This is why I wanted to have you on the Mel Robbins podcast, and maybe it's because I'm a lawyer and so I love how you research. But I want to take a highlighter and I want to highlight this right now for you listening because if you've never heard that narcissism is not something someone's born with, it is created in childhood, it is the result of repeated trauma and what Rebecca is explaining to you, and this piece of it is critical that the trauma during childhood, emotional neglect, physical abuse, whatever the trauma may be, it causes arrested development in the part of the brain that is responsible for someone's emotions.

(00:23:22):

And what does that mean? That means that while their prefrontal cortex or their thinking part of the brain is fully functioning, their emotional part of the brain is lagging. That's why somebody who has a narcissistic personality has so little emotional control. And when start to understand, oh, wait a minute, the thinking part of the brain goes forward, but the emotional one literally stops. If you've ever dealt with somebody who's narcissistic, I bet they spin on a dime. I bet all of a sudden they can rage at you. I bet all of a sudden they're like irrational. And when I started to realize in my own brain, oh, wait a minute, this is something that a narcissistic person has no control over, this is why they're so unpredictable, this is why they're immature. This is why they can say such mean things and be like anything that it has to do with the delay in the emotional development while the thinking part of the brain is proceeding. And this is really important for you to understand because this is not your fault.

(00:24:33):

There is nothing you can do to change this and getting yourself all wrapped around the axle because you got somebody in your life that tantrums at you like some 8-year-old. This is part of how the brain developed because of the, you heard the word again, arrested development in the limbic system. And this was critical for Rebecca to learn so that she could navigate the courtroom so that she could be a savvy negotiator so that she could get into the courtroom or into the deposition and win. She knows she's dealing with somebody who's super sharp in the mind, but ridiculously immature in the emotions. And this is so life-changing for you to wrap your brain around because this has nothing to do with you. And later, I promise you, Rebecca's on is going to teach you her four step proven approach to negotiating with somebody that has narcissism and still winning.

(00:25:24):

She's also going to give you the phrases that she likes to say that really disarms somebody with this kind of arrested development. And when we come back from a short word from our sponsors, you better be here because I'm going to be here with Rebecca. And you know what we're talking about. We're talking about this phenomenon called blindness that happens when you have narcissism. And this is also part of how a person's brain develops during early childhood, and I can't wait for you to hear this. So stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. I'm so thrilled that you're still here because we are with Rebecca Zung. She is one of the world's highest ranked attorneys world's the us. Okay? I'm just so excited. I'm now starting to inflate her credentials. But the bottom line is she's a badass and she's here teaching you and I about narcissism and what she's learned as a lawyer and in research and writing three different books on the topic about understanding how narcissism is developed as a result of childhood trauma.

(00:26:28):

And I want to recap what you've already learned because this is going to empower you. So you've already learned that narcissists are not born, they are made, and they are the result of childhood trauma. And I'm going to repeat this part because this is a game changer. When you understand this due to childhood trauma, somebody with narcissistic tendencies or full-blown narcissism, what happens is the thinking part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, it keeps on going and developing, but the limbic system, the emotional controls, has this arrested development, which is why when you're dealing with somebody that has narcissistic tendencies, they can seem super irrational or emotionally immature or crazy, selfish, like a 6-year-old who doesn't want to share their toys and then erupts in something, and then you're like, what is going on? And then somehow you feel like you're the problem. And so Rebecca, I want to continue right in this thread and I want to flip the script a little bit.

(00:27:39):

As you're listening, I want you to think about somebody in your life that you're dealing with that either has narcissistic tendencies or is a full blown narcissist. Maybe it's your mom or dad, maybe it's your ex, maybe it's a friend, maybe it's a boss, maybe it's a kid, somebody in your life that really fits the description that you're starting to fully grasp. Good, you got that person. Great. Now, I want you to take that person. Let's just say it's your dad and let's shrink your dad down and imagine who's just a little kid who is experiencing a traumatic situation in their house, whether it's emotional abuse, it's physical abuse, it's abandonment, it's loneliness, whatever it may be, that that is their reality. And so can you explain what's going on for that little 8-year-old kid that's exposed to this, Rebecca, and how narcissism develops?

Rebecca Zung (00:28:37):

So for children who are dealing with this continuously in households where there's a lot of stress, where there's a lot of trauma, and they're exposed to this on a continuous basis, while the prefrontal cortex part of the brain continues to develop the part of the brain responsible for judgment or other thinking, planning that continue to develop. And so during the rest of their lives as adults, they appear to be functioning normally. There's actually a disconnect between the development between that part of the brain and the limbic system, part of their brains. And so while they are functioning normally in one part of their lives and now something might happen, some sort of trigger, some sort of stimuli has caused them to feel like they need to be back into survival mode. And that stimuli can be anything. And most times it's not necessarily rational or reasonable to most people, but it is to them.

(00:30:10):

And it can be anything. It can be nonverbal or it could be verbal. It can be a nonverbal cue such as an eye roll or a stance, or it could be a tone of voice. I always say narcissists hear tones, like dogs hear whistles, but there's no tone, but they hear tone, so it could be anything, but they get triggered. That thing triggers them. And because of the phenomenon called splitting that they have where everything is black or white or good or bad or whatever, when that trigger happens now they go from that prefrontal cortex back into the limbic system, that limbic system becomes activated, and now you're dealing with that limbic system or they are dealing with that limbic system. And that emotionally charged state is what is taking over now at that point. And now that front part of their brain is no longer in charge anymore. Their limbic system is now in charge. And when that happens, they don't necessarily remember or know what they're doing now happening, and that when that happens, it's what's narcissistic injury is what it's called. And they will then take themselves down sometimes to take you down. The retaliation might happen. They inflict harm, they manipulate, they have little recollection of their actions at that point, and they are seemingly blind or indifferent to the collateral damage that they cause to themselves or others during that state. They are literally blinded

Rebecca Zung (00:32:17):

to themselves or others during that state. They are literally blinded by their actions.

Mel Robbins (00:32:27):

We have to stop on this point right here because what Rebecca is explaining to you when she talks about blindness and this being tied to the brain development, this changed my fricking life and I want to take a highlighter and I want it to change your life. Because when you have somebody that is narcissistic in your life and they say, I never said that, that never happened, you are wrong. I didn't mean that. I always felt like they were lying to me that there was this intent to destroy, right? And when I dug into the research, just like Rebecca dug into the research, and I learned that there is this term blindness that due to the arrested development in the limbic system, which means they have little to no emotional control, right? That the emotional eruption, when they get that wave of emotion, it does override the thinking center and they completely forget what they did.

(00:33:48):

And so I will say, are there narcissists to do it intentionally? Probably. But it was super helpful for me to realize that there are things that have gone down in our family, for example, in the past where somebody with a narcissistic personality or narcissistic tendencies erupted and said some really cruel things. There were tears, there was a fight, there was upset. And it has always bothered me that the person has operated as if it never happened. And what I've come to realize is that based on the research, if it is a heightened emotional state, they might not even remember that it happened. And if we track back to the example that I gave you, remember when I asked you to just imagine, let's just say it's your dad who's narcissistic and imagine him as an 8-year-old freaking out and having a complete temper tan tantrum.

(00:34:52):

Do they remember the mechanics of the temper tantrum? Usually they don't. And so you kind of know this based on your experience, but being able to tell yourself, oh, they say this. They actually don't remember saying it. Yeah, they may be a sociopath, dickhead too. But there's also this kind of, again, spectrum where because somebody is so emotionally immature and they get so triggered so fast and then they erupt with emotion and then they forget that they actually said it. And one of the things that I love about this is we have had a number of the world's most renowned experts on this show.

Mel Robbins (35:30):

And one of my favorite things that I have ever learned about narcissism, I have learned from Dr. Ramini, who by the way, is coming up for a two-part series. She has a new book out about healing after you've been sucked into a narcissistic relationship.

(00:35:50):

But one of the things that I learned from her, and this is why I keep a repeating this stuff, that narcissists are not born, they're made and they're made during childhood. And what I loved about that is that it allowed me to kind of feel sorry for a narcissist. And that may sound like a weird thing to say, but when you feel sorry for somebody, you get your power back because they don't seem so big and scary anymore. When I look at an adult who is narcissistic, you know what I feel? I'm like, wow, you must have experienced a lot of trauma as a kid. I feel pretty bad for you. And that ability to feel empathy or sadness or feel bad for somebody, it gives me my power and makes me not susceptible to their bs. You know what I'm saying? And so knowing that narcissists are not born that way, they're made tap into a little empathy.

(00:36:45):

And now because there is this arrested development, you are dealing with somebody who is not mature emotionally, and you are dealing with somebody who will tantrum as an adult. And you are also dealing with somebody who will likely deny that they did that because they're blind in those moments where they get wildly emotional. And Rebecca, why this is so important is that one of the most important things, and we're going to get into Rebecca's four part strategy that she uses when she needs to negotiate or navigate or diffuse or win against a narcissist, you're going to learn the phrases that diffuse somebody who has a narcissistic tendency or approach. But what I love about this is you're getting the why this works. You're getting the understanding, you're getting the facts and the science and the research so that you know this isn't about you. And I think that it's really empowering for me to know that every time this particular person in my life that I love, who is so easily triggered, who so easily rages, who so easily, like at the drop of a hat, boom, the mood changes. Who's always about them, who's got crazy ass expectations? And the second that the expectations aren't met, they're pouting. Like a fricking 6-year-old. When I can look at that and go, oh, this is childhood trauma. This is somebody who is not emotionally mature and probably never will because the development of their limbic system got arrested due to childhood trauma. That's why they don't think rationally. That's why they can't control their EM emotions. That's why this has nothing to do with me.

Rebecca Zung (00:38:47):

That's exactly correct. That's exactly correct. And even beyond that, what people need to understand is when that is happening, and because that is happening, dealing with that in any situation means that you cannot communicate with them. You cannot negotiate with them in the same way that you can with a rational reasonable person. You cannot.

Mel Robbins (00:39:18):

Well, Rebecca, I love that you said that because both parents, and so just to make this as so simplistic that anybody of any age anywhere in the 194 countries where this show is syndicated, can understand it, just like you cannot negotiate something with a 8-year-old the same way that you would negotiate with a fully functioning adult. You need to put someone who's got narcissistic tendencies into the camp of negotiating with an 8-year-old because you're not dealing with a fully functioning rational human being with fully developed emotional centers in the brain and the ability to regulate themselves or even understand what they're doing. Is that correct?

Rebecca Zung (00:40:09):

Yes. And I would even say an 8-year-old who's having a tantrum.

Mel Robbins (00:40:14):

Okay, I love that. How did knowing that help you?

Rebecca Zung (00:40:20):

Oh, so much so, so much so, because once you learn this, then first of all, you can stop taking it personally. Second of all, once you learn that you can stand in your own power and that they're actually way more afraid of you than you are of them, I mean, are

Mel Robbins (00:40:46):

They afraid? Do they feel fear? You start to feel like this person's such a cold piece of shit that you wonder, do they even feel fear? Do they not?

Rebecca Zung (00:40:55):

I mean, they're afraid that you're going to leave them. They're afraid of abandonment. They're afraid you're going to expose them. They're afraid. They're very fear-based individuals. I mean, don't, they're afraid you're going to figure out that it's all a big ruse, that none of what they're doing is that you actually have more value than they do. The next step is knowing that once you stand in your authentic power, that they can't touch you because they prey upon people who don't have that. They prey upon people who have leaky boundaries. They pre upon people who they're going to be able to get suck that supply from because that's what it is that they need.

Mel Robbins (00:41:39):

You use that term leaky boundaries. What are leaky boundaries? Give us an example of what a leaky boundary would look like.

Rebecca Zung (00:41:46):

Leaky boundaries is when instead of stopping somebody from doing something, we allow something to happen that we probably shouldn't. So for example, we don't speak up when we should. So I can say for me, in my business, I saw some things happening with money, for example, and I didn't say something, and I should have sometimes maybe you allow things to happen. It is just like things happen in relationships where you shouldn't and you don't speak up. You're just allowing things to happen when you shouldn't. And it's an emotional response to trauma, and it allows you to be open and vulnerable to situations, especially with narcissists that allows them to come in and take control.

Mel Robbins (00:43:03):

I feel so empowered, don't you? Now that you really understand the brain and the development and the emotional aspect of this and that it's not your fault, and now that we got that, okay, we're armed with the knowledge, everybody. I want to pivot Rebecca and talk about this concept that you have researched extensively called narcissistic supply because this concept also changed my life. And so based on your research, can you explain to the person listening, what does narcissistic supply mean? And we have to really put a lot of emphasis on this as you're listening, and...

Mel Robbins (00:43:49):

Here's why. Because you have to understand narcissistic supply in order to truly follow Rebecca's four point strategy. And in order to use the tactics to win, and it has to do with narcissistic supply, okay? This is paramount to you understanding and being able to effectively deal with narcissism, negotiate with a narcissist, stay grounded in your power, and not get sucked in to this supply and demand loop that Rebecca is just about to explain to you. So Rebecca, give us the 1 0 1 on narcissistic supply and why it matters.

Rebecca Zung (00:44:33):

It's anything that feeds their ego, because ego is the only thing that they feel is they're very steeped in ego. So it's the only thing that motivates them. It's what fills them and gives them a feeling of value. So for me, I say there's two levels of narcissistic supply. It's that diamond level supply and what I call coal level supply. And there's two tiers. To me, it's tiered, and it's important for people to understand that when they go to create leverage, this diamond level supply is all wrapped up in image. So it could be celebrities, it could be money, it could be a new girlfriend, it could be a judge in the courtroom, it could be their employers, it could be the employees, it could be a new

Mel Robbins (00:45:31):

Wife, could it be the outfit they're wearing, the car they're driving,

Rebecca Zung (00:45:34):

Could be outfit that they're wearing, could be wearing, it could be the label of the outfit, it could be what bank they're banking with, but it's all wrapped up in image. It's all wrapped up in what I call the window dressing of the world. But they will protect and defend the diamond level supply at any cost, even at the cost of their children, even at the cost of their children. And I have seen it, period, end of story. And then there's what I call coal level supply, which is also very, very important to them. They love it, they need it, but there's a slightly less tier, which is degrading people, controlling people, manipulating people, treating people poorly, pushing other people down in order to make themselves feel good. So passive aggressiveness, little comments, oh, that dress is very becoming on you for your figure, things like that.

Mel Robbins (00:46:48):

One of the things that I've seen a lot, I feel like I've mostly come in contact with people that do the coal level supply, that insult other people, manipulate other people, is this concept of triangulation where they are gossiping and they are building bonds by trashing other people. They're the person in the corner of the room at a party who's gossiping about everybody else to create a bond with someone in the corner.

(00:47:15):

And when I first heard about that as a extremely, when I first heard about triangulation and that type of, as you call coal level supply, trashing other people to bond with the people that you're with, that was my first introduction to narcissism about five years ago. I'm like, wait, that's what a narcissist does. Oh yeah, that's the number one sign that somebody has this as a personality type. And it was mind blowing because I didn't realize that that becomes something that somebody does in order to supply their own ego. Because when you're trashing other people, of course you feel better than other people.

(00:48:05):

And once you see that trashing other people as a sign that you're dealing with narcissism and you see it in the context of supply, I just want to warn you listening. You're going to see it everywhere. I mean it. You're going to see it everywhere. And so I'm feeling very empowered. I hope you're feeling very empowered, and I want to build on the knowledge from here. We've already learned so much, but we got to build from here because now that you have the basics down and the dynamic down and this concept of supply down, let's go into the three phases of a narcissistic relationship, okay? Because what Rebecca has done is Rebecca dug into the cycle of a narcissistic relationship. And I have to tell you before we unpack this, everybody, I used to work on a domestic violence hotline. I did this decades ago. I was a trained crisis intervention counselor. And I will tell you that when you learn the three phases, this cycle of...

(00:49:11):

A narcissistic relationship and how supply really plays into it, it feels almost identical to battered women's syndrome and the romance and the honeymoon cycle and the abuse cycle. And what's interesting is because so many of you have experienced emotional abuse from somebody who's narcissistic, I think it can be really confusing to identify it because it's kind of sinister. I mean, when somebody hits you, it's wrong. But when somebody is, I didn't say that, I never mean that raging at you, putting you on edge, making you feel like you're the one going crazy, it's all emotional. And so you start to question yourself. And so Rebecca's going to teach you that there are three phases of a narcissistic relationship and they are very distinct.

(00:50:08):

And the first phase is when you get pulled in. And that phase is something you've probably seen other people have happened to them. I've certainly seen it happen to one of our kids. You get swept right off your feet and you know that this is something called love bombing. And that's what we're going to talk about when we come back. We're going to dig into all three phases, what they look like, what they feel like, how to spot which phase you might be in or a friend might be in. And then we are going to get to that four step approach to how you deal with a narcissist, how you negotiate, and how you ultimately win and get what you need from the narcissist in your life. So don't you dare go anywhere because I'm going to be waiting for you after the break. Welcome back.

(00:50:51):

It's your friend Mel Robbins. We are digging into narcissism. And boy are we learning a lot from Rebecca Zung. As you know, Rebecca Zung is one of the top ranked lawyers in the United States. She has been researching narcissism for decades. She's written three books on the subject, and I love her angle. She's not a psychologist, she's not a relationship expert. She's a lawyer who is here to make her case. She is a lawyer who shows up in a court with a strategic mind and a game plan to win. And so let's dig in to the three phases, the cycle of a narcissistic relationship. And Rebecca, you write extensively about phase one, which is love bombing. Can you describe what love bombing is?

Rebecca Zung (00:51:38):

Yeah, so it's the same whether it's a professional or a personal relationship. And obviously if you're in a family, it's totally different...

Rebecca Zung (00:51:48):

But this is initial if you're just meeting a person. So they use mirror neurons by the way. I mean this is one thing I do say it they're really, really good at because it's a survival mechanism for them. So it's something that they've learned from childhood to do, and that is they kind of become exactly what you want. They're very good at reading people, so they're almost like chameleons to read exactly what you want. And they come on really, really strongly at the beginning to, I mean, it's almost like you can't breathe. They overpower you and all of a sudden, oh, you're the most amazing thing. They make you feel like you're the most incredible person that they've ever met, and they are the most incredible person that you've ever met.

(00:52:57):

And it's like your soulmates and where have you been all my life? And it's 50 emails a day and a thousand text messages a day, and they're showing up at your house or office and we should get married and we should meet your family. Or if it's a business relationship, then we should be business partners. And I've got all the best contacts and it's the excitement and it's the chemistry, and you almost can't breathe or see anything else because it's all them all the time because they're trying to get you to that next level right away. They want to lock you in as fast as possible. Let's get married in Vegas, let's move in together, get me on your bank accounts. And many times they'll show up as your savior. It might be right after somebody died and they're swooping in and they're taking care of everything. Or it might be if you are a victim of something, then they'll show up and take care of everything that way. Or they look for opportunities to kind of swoop in if they look for vulnerabilities that way as well. But it's sweep you off your feet, grand gestures, massive, huge grand gestures like that a lot of times. So that's the kind of thing you see at the beginning, big case, lock you in.

Mel Robbins (00:54:34):

One of the things I just want to point out is that even though you're using terms, they look for this, they do this. Would you agree though that this is given that it's arrested development, not something that a narcissist is consciously doing, that they're not sitting around going, who's my next victim? Who am I going to love? Bomb? This is their way of being and they do it innately. And so I think part of the reason why it's important to highlight that to everybody is to make sure that you understand that that's why there is such a sense of denial. I never did this. I didn't do that. I didn't say that because they're not even aware that this is what they're doing. They just think that you're in love. They just think that we should get married. They just think that we are soulmates. I watched this happen with somebody that I love just in the past year, and it was so alarming because as this person came on the absolute love of this person's life and took over their universe, I'm thinking, this is love bombing. Oh my God. But from both the person with narcissism and the person that they were love bombing, this felt like the world's best, most magical love story. And nobody could argue otherwise.

Rebecca Zung (00:56:04):

I absolutely do think that. I think they believe everything that they say I do. I always tell people, send them light. But over there you have to protect yourself though too. So yes, have compass for them. But

Mel Robbins (00:56:23):

I agree. What I'm trying to say is I think maybe too fine of a point that when I see people talk about narcissism, particularly on social media, there is an assumption that there is a very specific and conscious and intentional strategy that somebody is deploying. And what I'm trying to say is I don't believe that's true because I think this is just how they operate and they're not even aware that this is how they operate. It's unconscious, which makes it almost more dangerous that they are stuck in this loop themselves as an 8-year-old emotionally, and they're not doing anything to you, so to speak. This is how they move through every single relationship, and they are not going to be attracted to somebody who is strong and in their power because you're not buying into the love bombing and you're not part of this loop.

(00:57:18):

And so I guess I say that only because I see a lot of misinformation and finger pointing in the language online. That's not what you're saying, but I think it's important for somebody listening to understand. If you listen closely to what Rebecca Zung is saying, she's saying based on her research, this is something that happens neurologically during childhood. That's why there's so much denial on the part of the narcissist. They're not aware. So after the love bombing though, and you now are in business with somebody and you now have given somebody equity or you have put them into your bank accounts or you think you're running off and getting married, there's all of a sudden a second stage. What is that stage, Rebecca?

Rebecca Zung (00:58:05):

The devalue is that's when you start to see the wheels come off. That's when they start to exhale, and that's where you start to see the red flags and there's no more of the 50 emails a day. That's where you start to see the lying. As soon as you get to this part, they've locked you in, they've gotten here, which is what they've been looking for. This is where they kind of relax because they've kind of been holding their breath trying to get you, get you get you, and now they've gotten you. And so now they sort of exhale and you get to start to see that mass come down a little bit, and now you start to see all the red flags. Their stories aren't holding up. Now you start to see lies. Now you start to see manipulation. Now, all that money that they borrowed from you, well, they're not probably ever going to pay it back, but they're starting to lie about, oh, and that degree that they said they had, well, it's not really a degree, it's really something else.

(00:59:16):

And that they said was a thing, well, that's not really a thing. Oh, that project that they said they were going to do for you, well, that's probably not going to get done, and all these things are starting to happen and the 50 calls a day, well, now they don't call you at all, and now how come you're so needy? And it just becomes this whole relationship that you didn't think it was at all, and you're trying to chase and get that back again. But then when you start to walk away, well then they make promises, promises for the future, and it becomes this whole toxic stew, push, pull, push, pull, push, pull, which is also plays upon your brain because now you're getting these dopamine hits, so you become physiologically addicted to this person and that causes a trauma bond in you.

Mel Robbins (01:00:31):

I would love to have you unpack this. Can you, because as you're describing this, Rebecca, my heart is sinking because I have watched someone that I love deeply go from a very strong centered, powerful person to questioning themselves relentlessly and putting up with bullshit lies and kind of that, oh, I never said that, and you're needy, and kind of that pushback...

Mel Robbins (01:01:02):
And questioning themselves, and I have not known what to do. And so can you explain what you mean when you use that term addicted?

Rebecca Zung (01:01:13):

Yes. So there's a study by a professor from Stanford called, his name is Robert Polsky, and he did a study on monkeys, and the monkeys would get a reward every single time they did something good and nothing happened in their brain. Then he would give these monkeys a reward intermittently, and they didn't know when they were going to get this reward, and when they didn't know, then the dopamine levels in their brain actually rose to the level of cocaine.

Mel Robbins (01:02:02):

I am so glad you are bringing the study up, Rebecca, in the context of narcissism because I'm very familiar with the study and just to kind of broaden this out for you listening, this is a really well-known study that's normally talked about in the context of addiction. It was done with monkeys, and here's what it proved. It proved that not getting the reward all the time is what got the monkeys addicted. I can give you another example that'll make sense. Envision a slot machine when you go and you pull the lever or you push the button on the slot machine and you watch those things like twirl, right? As you are craving a win and you don't get it, oh, what do you do? Boom, you hit it again. All of a sudden you get a win. Oh my God, amazing. So now what do you do?

(01:02:50):

You hit it again, and then you hit it again, and then you hit it again and you hit it again, and now you get a win again. But it's not consistent, is it? See, it's the inconsistency. It's the fact that it might be really good. That's what causes the addiction to it. And so this is really important to understand when in the context of narcissism, because the praise and the love bombing and the attention from the narcissist, it's totally unpredictable. One minute you're the center of the world and they love you, and you're this and you're that and the other thing, and then boom, the wind changes and you're in the phase of discard. You're literally, they don't even talk to you, and that's what makes you feel like a monkey addicted to cocaine who doesn't know when it's going to come next. And this is also why you can have a super smart, rational, accomplished girlfriend and watch her become a complete cocaine addicted monkey. When she gets in a relationship with a narcissist, you see the love bombing, then you see the inconsistent behavior, then you try to appeal to her rationally, but then she's back into the love bombing and it's just like gambling or any other addiction because it's so inconsistent. You literally get addicted to the person because you're waiting for that next round of the love bombing to come. This makes so much sense,

Rebecca Zung (01:04:19):

Right? The conclusion was that when you are dealing with a narcissistic type of a person that the anticipation of this love bomb, you actually become physiologically addicted to this person, and that is partially what contributes to this trauma bond is that actually your brain becomes physiologically addicted to that hit of wanting that back.

Mel Robbins (01:04:56):

I have seen this dynamic play out with somebody I love deeply in a relationship. These first two phases of the relationship, the first one being the love bombing everybody. And the second one now is this sort of devaluing that makes the person spin. But then there's this third phase of a narcissistic relationship, this cycle that you can get in and you label this the discard phase.

Rebecca Zung (01:05:22):

So the discard phase can be either you're discarding them or they're discarding you. I mean, this is where it's the end of the relationship and you will see the birth of the smear campaign for sure, but this is where you will definitely become public enemy number one, and because you're either for them or against them, and so even with the covert narcissist, the mask will definitely come off and they will come after you because they want to make sure they take you down before you can take them down.

Mel Robbins (01:05:59):

So Rebecca, if you are in that discard phase where they've withdrawn, the lies are coming out, the truth is starting to get revealed, you say there's only three options when you realize you're in this phase, what are they?

Rebecca Zung (01:06:16):

Well, you can stay. You can give exactly what they want, or you can fight back and do it in a way that strategically, which you have to do, you have to do. I was the people pleaser though. I wanted to be liked. I didn't want other people who were in our circle to think that I was the bad one. She was all likable, and I didn't want people to be mad at me, and I had all this stuff that I needed to get past so that I could speak up and stand on my own two feet, and thank God I did.

Mel Robbins (01:06:59):

Thank God you did because now you're here to teach us how to do the same thing and how to try to support the people that we see stuck in this to do the same thing. For somebody listening who has been caught in this cycle and they don't even know what their value is because they're so spun around, where do you begin? How do you define it if you don't even know what it is? Because you're that like, ah,

Rebecca Zung (01:07:22):

Those baby steps, little baby steps. Once you start little baby stepping it and you start to see little steps, that's why little wins every single day start to stack up. And when you start to see, you know what, I did it. I started to create a boundary today, and it worked. I started to do this a little bit today, and it worked. That's where you start to stack up those wins and you start to turn it around and you'll see it'll work. It starts working.

Mel Robbins (01:07:58):

The two biggest things that changed for me in terms of me getting on the offensive was identifying the narcissism as a tantrum and visualizing the narcissist as an 8-year-old in a tantrum, which helped me separate myself. And the second thing was really taking a pause after visualizing the tantrum and asking myself, well, what do I want right now? And if I don't want to deal with this, it's a yes or a no or silence. And if I do want to deal with it, it's exactly what you're talking about in terms of thinking about, okay, well there's going to be a supply here. What am I willing to give to get what I want?

Mel Robbins (00:01:08:11)
In a tantrum, which helped me separate myself. And the second thing was really taking a pause after visualizing the tantrum and asking myself, well, what do I want right now? And if I don't want to deal with this, it's a yes or a no or silence. And if I do want to deal with it, it's exactly what you're talking about in terms of thinking about, okay, well there's going to be a supply here. What am I willing to give to get what I want? And doing that consciously and emotionally distant makes you feel so empowered because you're no longer in it. You're now the one manipulating it, and they don't even know's.

Rebecca Zung (01:08:59):

Fantastic, a hundred percent. You are the one in control. And just remember what's negotiable is contracts and issues and terms, not your self-worth, your self-esteem. Or who you

Mel Robbins (01:09:13):

Are because there's so much denial when you're in it and so much I think explaining away bad behavior that I'm not sure people understand the strategies and the patterns that you can spot when you know them. So what are some of the most common patterns that narcissists use to keep your attention and that supply coming back to them?

Rebecca Zung (01:09:41):

Well, gaslighting is probably one of the biggest ones. I mean, I think all narcissists use gaslighting to destabilize you and make you think that you're crazy. So it would look like, and there's so many different forms of gaslighting, but the bottom line of gaslighting is trying to make you think that you're crazy. So it comes from the movie or the play gaslight where the husband was blowing out gaslights to try to make the wife think that she was crazy. So she would say, wasn't that just lit? And he would say, no, no, it wasn't. So that's what they do. So they'll say, oh, I'm going away with my friends for our anniversary weekend. And she would say, the wife would say, oh, you're going away on our anniversary weekend. We never discussed that. Oh yeah, we had a whole conversation about that. And you agreed, don't you remember? No, we never had that conversation. Oh yeah, we did. And we never had that conversation. That's gaslighting.

Mel Robbins (01:10:46):

You're giving my heart palpitations because I really felt like I was in the presence of this particular person that does this to me all the time. So what do you think the biggest myth is about narcissism or negotiating with narcissists?

Rebecca Zung (01:11:05):

A hundred percent. It is that narcissists just want to win because yeah, because they do want to win, but they also want to continue to manipulate you and see you squirm. And so the problem why people have trouble negotiating with narcissists and they can't ever get out of these things is because narcissists continue to move goalposts all the time because they enjoy the coal level supply too. And so they've missed the mark. They forgot about the coal level supply. And so unless you figure out a way to threaten a source of supply that's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around, which is the coal level supply, then you're never going to be done, ever.

Mel Robbins (01:12:11):

And I bet you saw over and over again being an attorney for 20 years representing people, particularly in high net worth divorces, that divorces go on for years and years and years of narcissists because they, by keeping the divorce and the arguing and all that crap alive, they're getting that supply that you're talking about.

Rebecca Zung (01:12:34):

And I didn't know what was going on as a lawyer. I had no idea. I had a guy, the divorce lasted five years. He told me I'd rather pay you than her.

Mel Robbins (01:12:45):

Yes. I think a lot of people say that.

Rebecca Zung (01:12:48):

And I remember saying to him, you don't need to put my kid through college. I was sick of him myself. How do I get rid of you? But I didn't realize that that's what he was doing.

Mel Robbins (01:13:08):

And what you're basically saying is that conflict and the ability to bitch to your lawyer about the crazy person on the other side, it actually creates that coal level supply in you, the narcissist, because you feel better than the crazy person. Am I getting this?

Rebecca Zung (01:13:26):

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you a crazy story. I'm going to tell you about a $2 million apology.

Mel Robbins (01:13:34):

Okay. I'd like one of those.

Rebecca Zung (01:13:39):

So I had a case where we were mediaing and we thought we were just about done. The guy was going to pay the wife. I mean, she was getting a lot of assets too, but over the course of the next several years, he was going to be paying her $2 million in alimony monthly, but it was going to add up to about $2 million. And he was big flaming narcissist. And anyway, mediator comes in, it's like nine o'clock at night, we've been mediating for 12 hours. And he says to me, Hey, Rebecca, can I talk to you for a second? We go out into the reception area and he's like, I've never seen this before, but the wife crazy enough, she's willing to wave alimony completely if he'll go in there, just the two of them and apologize to her for all of the things and the way he treated her during the marriage sincerely.

(01:15:05):

I'm like, and what's the catch? And he said, no catch. She just wants an apology. I'm like, all right. She's willing to waive it. We'll put it in the agreement. And her lawyer's standing there and she's like, yeah, I told her no, but this is what she wants. This really means a lot to her. I mean, I'm like, all right. So I go into the room and I told him what was going on and he says, no, I'm not going to do it. I said, what? Because you know why? Because he wanted the chance to be able to continue to screw with her every single month, not pay her, keep her on a string, do the whole thing. She wanted to be done with this dude. And I'm like, I'm going to kick your butt. You're going over there right now. And I'm thinking to myself, I need a CYA letter. He's going to come back over here and tell me why didn't you make me do this? So I said, you're going over there, you're doing this. So he went over there finally and did it like a puppy dog with his tail between his legs and he did it, and we got the alimony waved. It actually happened, but he did not want to.

Mel Robbins (01:16:38):

You wrote in your book, staying in a relationship with a narcissist just is really and truly not an option. And you listening to us as you're reflecting on everything that Rebecca Zung is sharing with you based on her personal experience, her professional experience, and all of this extensive research, the 40 million views on her YouTube channel, she knows this inside and out, you have this phrase, today is a great day to start negotiating my best life. And if see yourself reflected in the comments or the stories that Rebecca is talking about, there are things that you say, Rebecca, that you need to stop doing immediately. If you want to get out of a narcissistic relationship, what are the things you need to stop doing in order to cut off that supply and get out of there and negotiate for yourself?

Rebecca Zung (01:17:37):

So step one, don't run. Step two, make a U-turn. Step three, break free. So in this strategy, which is the first step, you have to have these action steps. So in that first action step, step one, don't run, stop allowing them to speak to you in a disrespectful manner. I mean, that's the very first step. I know you feel like it's so overwhelming and it's fearful and it's scary, and it feels like, oh my God, you're going to have all this backlash. And I know that because you feel like they're going to have that tantrum, but that very first boundary, that very first baby step can be, I'm not going to allow myself to be spoken to in a way that's disrespectful. That can be your very first step today because I know you have to course correct. It's like, stop that conditioning 180 degree turn right, stop that conditioning.

(01:18:41):

So first boundary is that start looking at them as if they are a child having a tantrum on the floor. Start putting that invisible shield down around you and like Superman, having bullets off your chest or wonder woman with the gold bracelets. Remember they didn't attach themselves to you because you have so little value. They attached themselves to you because you had so much. They devalue you because you have so much value. So remember that. Start looking at them like that. Stop defending yourself. Never explain, justify or overshare. So just start looking at them as if they're a third party. Just say, we can discuss this when you have...

Rebecca Zung (01:19:34):

Calmed down or I can see that you are upset. I can see that you are angry observing their behavior. Let it go by you almost like pretend like the words are looking wheezing by you. I always say it's sort of like dodgeball. When I was a kid, dodgeball was a big thing. So I always remember the words just they're looking at you hitting the wall.

Mel Robbins (01:19:59):

So is that, just so I know, because we're going to get a ton of questions, which is, okay, wait, how do I allow myself to not, how do I allow myself to hold a boundary and not be disrespected when this person barrages me with texts or yells at me and then I get paralyzed? And you have these essential phrases that you coach people to use to disarm a narcissist and observe the tantrum acknowledgement, but not let it hit you. Can you share a bunch of those phrases that you coach people to use?

Rebecca Zung (01:20:30):

Yes. You can say things like, I agree with you, I agree with you that we're not going to agree. I agree with you that that's your opinion. You can say things like that. I agree with you is always a good one because they kind of hear, I agree with you, but just make sure that you follow it up with I agree that that's your opinion. If they're saying things like You're a terrible mother or whatever, you just make sure that I agree that that's your opinion. Your triggers are not my responsibility. You can always say things like that because they often say it is your fault this or your fault that, something like that. But you can always make sure to remove yourself from a situation where you're not being respected.

Mel Robbins (01:21:21):

I love these phrases. I understand that's how you feel. Your approach is not working for me. Let's discuss this. When you're less emotional or angry, do you have any coaching for the fact that I think most people are afraid to say that because they're then going to invite narcissistic rage. So when you use one of these phrases to connect with your power and to not allow yourself to be disrespected, I understand that's how you feel. And then the person raises the stakes and starts raging at you, what would you advise somebody to do that is just starting to practice these boundaries and create boundaries and not run away from the situation?

Rebecca Zung (01:22:04):

If they feel like they are going to be in harm's way in some way, then they really may need to remove themselves from the same physical space. There's a saying that says that if you don't want to be a doormat anymore, get up off the floor and you train people, you condition people on how to treat you. And I mean, it may sound harsh, but it is the absolute truth, and narcissists are the best ones for that. And that's just the truth of the matter.

Mel Robbins (01:22:39):

So if they don't change and somebody's either unwilling or too scared to leave right now, how can you truly negotiate with somebody like that?

Rebecca Zung (01:22:51):

Well, you can because what I teach works,

Mel Robbins (01:22:55):

Rebecca, I just have to say I love the swagger. Well, you can because what I teach works because that makes me believe you and you are referring to slay method. And slay is a four part framework that you follow in the courtroom and in life for dealing with, negotiating with and winning against a narcissist. Can you explain what Slay stands

Rebecca Zung (01:23:21):

For? Slay stands for strategy, leverage, anticipate, and you.

Mel Robbins (01:23:26):

So let's start with the first one. S, what does it stand for?

Rebecca Zung (01:23:30):

S stands for developing a super strong strategy, which is the first part of that is creating a vision. If you're just trying to communicate in general, if you're just trying to figure out what to do with them, if you're in a family situation, if you're just trying to figure out how to deal with them in life, if it's your neighbor, if it's your tenant, what is it that you want? So many times people are like, I just want them to stop, or I just want peace. That's not a goal. You want to be specific about what you want.

Mel Robbins (01:24:12):

Is there a reason why peace can't be a goal? And let's take the example that you either have a mother or a father who is a narcissist, and all you do want is peace. You are not ready to become estranged and to remove them from your life. And you want to figure out a strategy that helps you know what your vision is. How do you figure that out? Because to your point, you always talk about these three Cs that you can't change 'em, you can't control them, and you can't, what's the other one?

Rebecca Zung (01:24:50):

You can't cause it control it or cure it.

Mel Robbins (01:24:52):

That's right. You can't cause this. You can't cure it and you can't control it. And so knowing that, how do you create a vision if it's your mother or your father? What questions do you ask yourself?

Rebecca Zung (01:25:05):

I still think even if it's your mother or father, you can create a more specific vision around what that relationship should look like for you.

Mel Robbins (01:25:16):

I don't want to be triggered all the time. I don't want her or his BS to trigger me or make me feel manipulated.

Rebecca Zung (01:25:23):

Right? Or even put that in positive terms. Do

Mel Robbins (01:25:27):

I have to put it in positive terms? Okay, what does that look like?

Rebecca Zung (01:25:33):

Right? So we will see each other X number of times a year, and during those visits we will have these kinds of conversations. And this is how I will define the relationship. And I think that you should be more specific like that because

Mel Robbins (01:25:56):

I love that.

Rebecca Zung (01:25:57):

Yeah, I think that will be because you get what you envision life, right?

Mel Robbins (01:26:05):

I love that. I love that. Because you're right, I think you're so conditioned when you're dealing with somebody who's narcissistic to think about it from what you're enduring versus what would you actually want. And a lot of times it's like, I'd like to be able to walk into a school function where my ex is and not feel like I've just left my body in a panic attack. I put that in a negative, but that's a very common one that I noticed is that people dealing with exes and feeling completely enmeshed and triggered and wanting to be able to feel powerful and unaffected anytime I see them, is that positive enough?

Rebecca Zung (01:26:49):

No, I think

Mel Robbins (01:26:52):

I love you, Rebecca. Help us.

Rebecca Zung (01:26:54):

I think it should be, I want to be able to walk into a school function and sit next to them and be able to discuss our child together and be happy for our child together and celebrate her together and go out for pizza together afterwards and laugh together during the show. I think that if you can be really specific like that, it would actually be more beneficial for you.

Mel Robbins (01:27:35):

Beautiful. L stands for leverage. What does that mean?

Rebecca Zung (01:27:39):

So leverage is where you're actually creating that motivation for the person to want to be squeezed and incentivized to want to come to a resolution with you. And in the case of a narcissist, it's going to have to be a situation where that diamond level supply is potentially going to be threatened. Or there are times when you could potentially what I call fluff or favor vomit later. So where you're

Mel Robbins (01:28:22):

Fluff for favor vomit later.

Rebecca Zung (01:28:25):

Yes. Where you sort of fluff up their ego in order to get something, give them something they want in order to get something you want. Because

Mel Robbins (01:28:36):

I do this all the time with someone in my life actually,

Rebecca Zung (01:28:39):

Now that

Mel Robbins (01:28:39):

I'm realizing I have really developed this strategy, I do deploy a strategy. I'm realizing as you're talking to feed a particular person's ego that they are getting their way, that they're the most important person in the room. And I do that as a manipulation strategy so that I can get what I want.

Rebecca Zung (01:29:09):

Exactly. Just as long as you know that you're only doing it in order to get what you want. If you have to go shower or vomit later, then you do the thing. But it's in order to get what you want later. But more often than not, what you kind of have to do is use your documentation because they lie so much because they're so careless, frankly. I mean, they don't think you're ever going to keep track of all the different times that they say things that are, they'll say something in a text message, they'll say something in an email, they'll say, I mean honestly are very irrational as we talked about at the beginning of this show, how many times their memory is faulty or whatever. But if you keep track, that's how you create your leverage in a negotiation. And you say, Hey, you said this.

(01:30:19):

You said this, you said this. I am going to present this in courts, I call it ethically manipulating the manipulator. You can call it whatever you want. Many times empaths are uncomfortable with that sort of thing. You have to be on the offensive when you are dealing with a narcissist, it's not doing anything other than what works. I mean, it's not anything that's unethical at all, but you have to do the things that are offensive. Whereas most empaths are like, I don't want to fight. I just want to resolve this peacefully. Let's just come to a resolution. But if you want to come to a resolution and you want them to stop jerking you around and you want them to leave you alone, this is what you have to do because they're never going to leave you alone. They're never going to stop. So many people come to me and they say, oh, we're still in court. It's five years later. They won't leave me alone. And I say, well, then you haven't figured out what your diamond level supply is yet. You haven't figured out what your leverage is yet.

Mel Robbins (01:31:44):

I bet that part, figuring out your leverage is the hardest part because you feel so spun around by the narcissist. So let me just see if I can track with you here in your four-part framework for negotiating with a narcissist. It's slay. So remember everybody. S is strategy. You have to have a vision of what you're looking for and that you want to get out of the relationship. And again, you have to have this going in or you're going to be spun around like a top. And the example that you gave, Rebecca, is my strategy is I'd like to sit next to them in a school function and discuss our child in a civil manner. The next step is l and l is for leverage. And again, this has to do with that narcissistic supply. They're always going to want to feed their ego. This never ends.

(01:32:37):

You've learned this and you have to accept that as fact and then use your leverage to give them what they want. Even if it makes you vomit later and you're doing this, you're giving them the supply, the attention, the praise, the the weakened trade that they're asking for. You're giving them that, even if it may, I don't want to have to do this. Why? So you can get what you want. And the reason why this is important is because when you supply them with something, what happens? You go into the cycle where they're nice to you and lots of leverage, by the way, Rebecca is teaching you, comes down to giving them what they want, but also documenting what they say, what they do, and how many times you say something and how many times you do something and why do you need the documentation, especially if you're in sort of a confrontational kind of thing.

(01:33:36):

And you don't have to be in court for this, by the way. This might be that you constantly argue with your parents about who's hosting the holidays. Keep a record. Keep a record so you have proof. I'm dead serious about this because this comes down to leverage and to supply, right? And this also keeps you from going crazy. And a lot of this has to do with the fact that when you give them something, they're in a good mood. So you can sneak in what you want. See how this works. I love this. So now that we understand the strategy and the leverage A comes next, and you say, Rebecca, you and I got to be able to be two steps ahead. Always. You got to anticipate. Can you teach us what you mean by that?

Rebecca Zung (01:34:21):

So A is where you can actually figure out the type of narcissist that you're dealing with because they will all act a little differently in negotiations. And so a covert narcissist is much more likely to use the flying monkeys and pretend like they're the nice one, and I'm the victim, and oh, poor me, and all of that. Covert narcissists are going to be the first one if somebody has cancer to show up with the basket and be right at their side in the hospital and that sort of thing, but smearing everybody on the side. So you just have to be careful of who you're dealing with. And then the anticipation is that also that knowing that they're going to try to bait you. I always say they go fishing, they go, and then they reel you in like this, and then once they have you, you're in the mud and you're down there.

Mel Robbins (01:35:22):

That makes a lot of sense. So what's the final part of the four-part slay framework?

Rebecca Zung (01:35:27):

The Y, which is you, which is standing in your authentic power for you on the offensive, and then also your mindset. Because a hundred percent of winning is your mindset. And if you don't believe you can win, nobody can help you. I have so many people who have said to me that I can't win or I can't do this, or whatever. And I always say to people, do you want to be right about that? Or do you actually want to win? Because you can be right or you can actually get out of this and win, but you can't have both, right? The good news is that there is a way to deal with them. Most people think that there's not, most people say You can't negotiate with a narcissist. You can't deal with a narcissist. There's nothing you can do that it's pointless, it's hopeless.

(01:36:29):

The good news is that there is actually a framework. It is actually pretty simple. They are actually pretty simple to understand, and that once you get on the other side of it and you stand up to them and you grab that power, the freedom that you feel, the feeling that you feel is actually beyond better than anything else. The people who I've helped through my programs are so powerful now. I actually now have master coaches who are becoming, they're graduating from my coaching program now. And it is beyond anything else that's more magical and more powerful than ever. That's the beautiful thing. You and you alone define your value. You can win.

Mel Robbins (01:37:32):

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Because we are all benefiting from the wisdom and the experience and all of this insight and these strategies that you're sharing with people around the world. And I personally want to thank you for taking the time to be with us and to empower us to not only spot this in our lives, but be smarter about it. And take that first step, which is don't run, get connected to your power and start to make a plan. And because of what you shared today, Rebecca Zung, we now can

Rebecca Zung (01:38:09):

Thank you. Thank you, thank you for having me.

Mel Robbins (01:38:13):

Ooh, I got a lot out of that. I hope you did too. And one of the things that I hope you will be able to do, given all of the tools and the wisdom and the analogies and the visuals and the scripts that Rebecca just gave you, is I hope you can be the good witch in your own life that when toxic people or narcissism comes floating in, like that bad witch in the Wizard of Oz, you can just raise your hand, go away. You have no power here, because if you use the tools and the strategies that you just learned, they will have no power over you. And that's exactly what I want. I want you to feel connected to yourself, and I want you to be able to rise above this stuff so that you can get what you want out of your life regardless of what that is.

(01:39:05):

Alrighty. In case nobody else tells you, I want to be sure to tell you that I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And now you have the tools to do so even when there's a narcissist in it. Alrighty, I'll talk to you in a few days. Thank you so much for being here with me on YouTube. And because you got so much out of this, I want you to go to this video next. It's the five signs that you're dealing with a narcissist and you're going to love it. Check it out.

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Key takeaways

When you realize a narcissist’s value comes from image, you stop chasing approval and start protecting your sanity from their endless scarcity mindset.
You can spot the cycle with a narcissist: intense love bombing, the painful devalue, and finally the discard where you’re left questioning your worth.
Narcissists experience arrested development in the limbic system, which is why their emotional control is stuck at a child’s level, no matter their intellect.
Gaslighting is their most powerful tool, making you doubt your memory and truth, but the fact is: their denials don’t erase what actually happened.
You must hold boundaries without defending or overexplaining. Phrases like “I agree that’s your opinion” keep you from feeding their toxic rage.

Guests Appearing in this Episode

Rebecca Zung

Rebecca Zung is an attorney, author, and negotiation expert specializing in empowering individuals to break free from toxic relationships.

Book: SLAY the Bully
Slay narcissists—the ultimate bullies—in negotiations by following this simple formula—developed by one of the top 1 percent of attorneys in the nation—a proven method to take you from victim to victory, without backlash!

In this book, globally recognized high conflict negotiation expert, and top attorney Rebecca Zung shares her revolutionary framework to SLAYing your negotiation with the narcissist.

By the time you're finished reading, you will know how to shift the dynamic of power and be more confident and empowered in every aspect of your life!

Resources

- Dr. Ramani’s book: Should I stay or should I go? Surviving A Relationship with a Narcissist
- Harvard Medical School: Can you spot a narcissist?
- National Library of Medicine: Can neuroscience help to understand narcissism?
- University of Chicago Medicine: Study shows Narcissistic Personality Disorder may have a biological component
- New York University: Narcissism driven by insecurity
- Harvard Business Review: How to work for a narcissistic boss
- American Psychological Association: Recognizing a narcissist, with Ramani Durvasula, PhD
- Harvard Business Review: How to manage a narcissist
- Narcissist Abuse Support: Slay your negotiation with a narcissist
- Tina Swithen: Implementing Yellow Rock Communication When Co-Parenting with a Narcissist

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2 Million Readers. 1 Life-Changing Newsletter

Related Episodes

Anxiety

Confidence

Habits

Health

Happiness

Motivation

Relationships

Most Popular

The Let Them Theory

The High 5 Habit

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2 Million Readers.
1 Life-Changing Newsletter