Episode: 10
2 Secrets to Handling a Narcissist: A Toolkit for Dealing With Toxic Behavior
with Dr. Ramani Durvasula, PhD
Discover tools to heal, regain your confidence, and stop blaming yourself for a narcissist’s actions.
This episode dives deep into understanding and managing relationships with narcissists.
Dr. Ramani Durvasula, the world’s leading expert on narcissism, teaches you to recognize red flags, handle narcissistic behavior, and set boundaries while maintaining your sanity.
From love bombing to gaslighting, this is your guide to breaking free from their impact.
Listen on:
You're not responsible for somebody else's behavior.Dr. Ramani Durvasula, PhD
Featured Clips
Transcript
Mel Robbins (00:00:03):
A lot of people want to know, am I more prone to dating a narcissist if I grew up in a household with a narcissistic caregiver
Dr. Ramani (00:00:10):
That just because you came from a narcissistic family system, it doesn't mean you are damaged. And remember, narcissistic people are very victimized. How come everyone's out to get me? How come life's so unfair to me? Do you say I'm sorry. No, what did you do wrong? I, because I brought
Mel Robbins (00:00:23):
Conditioned two. I
Dr. Ramani (00:00:24):
Dunno.
Mel Robbins (00:00:25):
Okay, so now we are at the point of the podcast where I feel like we have popped the popcorn and everybody listening is going, oh God. Okay, everybody buckle up. Get the pens out. We are ready for a rocking hour. I cannot wait because Dr. Ramani is back.
Mel Robbins (00:01:22):
Am I more prone to dating a narcissist if I grew up in a household with a narcissistic caregiver?
Dr. Ramani (00:01:28):
Well, it certainly sets you up with a vulnerability because it almost normalizes some of it, and it also takes away, it robs a person from their sense of self and the fact that they even have the right to express their needs. Well, that's a perfect trap because now if you're not expressing your needs, the narcissistic person you need isn't going to meet them anyhow. You can easily get caught, repeat that same trauma bonded dance of justifying this person's behavior, feeling that it's your fault. It sort of indoctrinates you into accepting this behavior in a partner because it's
Mel Robbins (00:02:01):
Familiar from childhood,
Dr. Ramani (00:02:02):
It's familiar, and it's also, it becomes almost a psychologically, a way of relating to the world. In fact, I've worked with more than a few survivors who said, I met a healthy person. They were kind and empathic and generous of spirit and believed in me, and I convinced myself I was bored with them. Wow,
Mel Robbins (00:02:24):
That's so true. It is true that there are lots of, we all have a friend or a sibling that you're like, they're such a nice person. The person that you're supposed to be with is right
Dr. Ramani (00:02:37):
In front of you. And I tell them, if you've come through a narcissistic family system and you meet someone and boring's not even the right word that you're not, I hate to say it's that you're not triggered by them, but you feel like it's not what you think love is supposed to be, which is exciting, but think about what your life was as a child. It was a roller coaster. Good days, bad days. I'm going to win them over. Today's the day, oh my gosh, who's going to come home today? They have a candy bar in their briefcase. For me, it's a good day. That kind of up and down and just anticipation almost makes it that an adult relationship that's characterized by that rollercoaster vibe is what you've conflated with love. So when a survivor tells me, I've met someone like, I don't know, it's not all this zaza zoo, I'm like, okay, this might be a keeper.
(00:03:24):
Let's just keep going. Sadly, what I've witnessed, Mel, is that many people had to go through the brutality of a narcissistic relationship and then after having to leave that and shut it down, were they then able to hold space for someone who treated them with kindness and generosity? It breaks their hearts. They think, what would my life have been if this was the kind of person I had been with all along? But it's almost as though their psyche couldn't accommodate that because nobody's teaching this in school. People learn about this after they've been hurt by it.
Mel Robbins (00:03:55):
Well, and the thing that you just said that I think is really important is whatever that roller coaster was, that was your experience of love. You were a child. That's what, and so it makes a lot of sense to me. So for those folks that are listening, we got this question a ton. Well, first lemme ask this. So if you listen to the first episode or you already know that you grew up in a household with a narcissistic parent, what are the few things that you need to do for your own healing so that you can be open to and interested in somebody who's healthy, even though you've never been with somebody who is
Dr. Ramani (00:04:38):
Number one, is being willing to see it? Clearly, this is a painful, it's that painful awareness of, oh my gosh, my parent is narcissistic, my parent is antagonistic. I have a parent who has no empathy because it almost is leaning into this sort of, A lot of people say, who had narcissistic parents said, I felt a certain shame about my childhood. I knew something wasn't quite right here, but I didn't know what it was. No kid wants to be the odd kid out. Nobody wants to be the kid who was the fighting parents or something's not quite right in their home. And I think with people who grew up in those kinds of homes, it was sort of fake to the world. Maybe your friends would come over and your parent would actually be really charming, but then when everyone was out of the house, your parent was a rager.
(00:05:20):
That kind of inconsistency really would leave people feeling like, what is wrong with me? It really becomes doing it is about therapy or doing the deep dive of being willing to sort of look at these patterns with a very open eye, no matter how painful it is, that just because you came from a narcissistic family system, it doesn't mean you're damaged. It's not an indictment of you, which unfortunately a lot of people feel. And then to really take a good hard look at where has this hijacked you? Where has this robbed you of your autonomy, of your identity of who you are, do the hard work. Some of that can even be done, if not just through therapy, through journaling, just being aware of where that happened, how you talk to yourself, how you apologize for things you didn't even do wrong. How you're constantly putting yourself down, self gaslighting yourself like, oh, I don't know what I'm talking about. Don't listen to me. How many people do that reflexively? That's a throwback to that childhood. It's about getting your house in order before you start going out there and basically replicating those cycles.
(00:06:22):
Unfortunately, that's not what people are taught to do, and a lot of people in their early twenties don't have the time, the volition or the money to go into therapy. Are there
Mel Robbins (00:06:30):
Personality types that are more prone to having a narcissist come into their lives?
Dr. Ramani (00:06:37):
Well, I think that there's definitely a person who, it comes from a narcissistic childhood. There's a vulnerability there. Listen, I'm going to say this, Mel, to make this almost as an easy question to answer everyone is there's not a person out there who's not. And I'll tell you why. Because at first blush, narcissistic people are charming, charismatic, curious, confident, comforting, even they feel like they can take care of things. If these people were coming in on date, one screaming at you and cursing at you, probably not going to be a date too. There's a whole phenomenon of love bombing.
Mel Robbins (00:07:12):
Well, okay, we'll get to love bombing in a minute, but how the hell are you supposed to spot one then
Dr. Ramani (00:07:18):
If you're dating? Because this is where the trauma bond becomes a problem. So with the trauma bond results in not just that alternation between good and bad, but you justify the bad days, right? So, oh, dad just had a bad day at work. Mommy's just really tired. We're all pushing her to, and then you internalize that blame Daddy had a bad day at work. I have to be good mom's just really tired. I have to help. So they're trying to, but you justify just stuff. Think of everyone in a narcissistic relationship. He had a tough child, has a competitive job. The deals haven't been coming through the way they want, they just want what's best for us. I mean, the justifications gone forever, but the justifications keep the toxic dynamic in place. And that's another core pillar of that trauma bond. So the just justify, justify, justify. And so everyone's vulnerable because you meet someone and you're attracted to them and they are charming and interesting or whatever it is that appeals to you about them and they stay that way. Four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks, three months sometimes. Now you're in, you're falling in love with this person. Now the stuff starts to gurgle up those proverbial red flags.
Mel Robbins (00:08:28):
And what are the
Dr. Ramani (00:08:29):
Proverbial red flags
Mel Robbins (00:08:30):
When you're dating?
Dr. Ramani (00:08:31):
Okay, the red flags might be things like getting snappy when you give them a little bit of feedback, being really entitled when you go to a restaurant with them. So watch how they
Mel Robbins (00:08:41):
Treat waiters.
Dr. Ramani (00:08:41):
Watch how they treat waiters. Watch how they treat anyone, how they talk about other people. Contemptuous dismissal. How do they get along with your friends? It may be that one of your friends, the one friend that might've called them out on someone might be the one friend. They say, I don't think that friend's good for you kind of thing. So those things will pop up. But here's the thing, Melo was talking with someone recently on my own podcast and in her situation, she didn't have a single six years of marriage, not one red flag. I'm going to make people listen to my podcast to hear what happened when the red flags came piling in. But there someone six years, she's like, I am being honest with you. And people who knew me would say the same thing. There was no red flags. So everyone, I'm saying this for one reason why
(00:09:27):
A lot of people blame themselves. They'll say one day, whether it's one year in two years in or 10 years in, the narcissism shows up, there must have been red flags. I didn't see them. I must be an idiot. This is my fault. This is my fault for not seeing the red flags. I really want to tell everyone. While some of them may be out there, some of them may be humming at such a low level that you're not noticing them or they're so reminiscent of what you grew up with. They're like, oh my god, this is nothing compared to my mother kind of thing. But in the vast majority of cases, the red flags were there and it's a combination of either people didn't know they were red flags, people justified them, or people blamed themselves immediately. I shouldn't have criticized their sweater even though it wasn't a criticism they quickly justify.
(00:10:12):
But everyone is vulnerable. Now, are some people more vulnerable? Certainly people who grew up with a narcissistic parent or parents, they're vulnerable. People with histories of trauma who already are might be, that can often result in self devaluation and other phenomena that would lead a person less likely to call out the red flags people who, this is going to be a surprising one. People come from very happy families with two loving parents and just happy those folks are vulnerable because they don't even believe this exists. So when there's a red flag, they'll often think like, well, we just loved each other through this stuff. There ain't no loving anyone through a red flag. So they might turn to that. There are people who are going through periods of transition. So on the rebound, people will sometimes meet narcissistic people. When a person moves to a new city, has moved to a new job, has experienced a major loss, these are people who are already more vulnerable.
(00:11:10):
And the idea that someone new is coming into your life, especially let's say new city, wow, this is great. I'm meeting someone and you kind of go into the rom-com mindset rather than this is moving a little bit quickly. That kind of thing. People who are in a rush are vulnerable people. My biological clock is ticking, all my friends are getting married. That kind of thing. Those are folks who may be vulnerable saying, okay, I'm just going to have to settle here. I really want to be a parent and this is who's in front of me right now. And I can't tell you how many people have gotten roped in narcissistic relationships because they felt a time clock ticking around marriage, around settling down, around having a child. They really felt like, if I don't do this, I don't want to end up my friend who ended up never meeting anyone.
(00:11:54):
And regrets that I tell you one thing they regret, probably don't regret just meeting that person. Exactly. And so all of these kinds of other sorts of vulnerability factors that a person can bring in can increase the vulnerability beyond what we all have. And I think that the idea that all of us, that somebody's not vulnerable, I mean, again, the unicorns out there are the people who really, really almost see it right away. Listen, I do this. This is what I do. I'm still played. People still come into my life. I'm getting better at it. But to get better at it, Mel, I almost had to become, I feel at times there's a part of me that's become kind of closed off.
Mel Robbins (00:12:38):
So is there one or two red flags that for you are just non-negotiable? Like the second you see that one, you are like, Nope. Because when you talk about being closed off, you are extremely warm and extremely smart and extremely generous. And so I'm just wondering, I think that what's scary about hearing all this is that by the time you kind of wake up and you're three months into something or three years into something and all the bonds are there and the lease is signed and you're married or you have kids, or now you've moved in together or now you're like got all the chemicals flooding your body because you're falling in love and you start to hear these red flags. I never would've had the strength. I think when I think most people don't. You know what I mean, to be like, oh, okay, time to end this.
Dr. Ramani (00:13:33):
No, no, no. Most people don't. And that's again, it's important for people to hear that because a lot of people feel foolish. Why didn't I heed the red flags? I knew it on my wedding day. I knew it. I felt it because when, again, these stories are so easy to tell backwards, but at that point it would've felt cataclysmic. And in a way, this was the only way you were going to truly get the lesson. It's unfortunate. The issue then becomes like when I meet somebody who's a little bit too charming, a little bit too charismatic, I shut down. I'm like, why? What is this? And people are saying, you're the only person I've ever met who walks away from charismatic people. Literally, I've been at gatherings and a person's just that person and people must think I have some sort of bowel disorder. I have to run to the restroom the number of times at a social event. I'll say, I have to run to the restroom. People are like, what did she eat?
Mel Robbins (00:14:27):
It's interesting that you say that because I recently had a couple things go down both in business and life that were just shocking. Betrayals lies stolen from all that kind of stuff that just knocked me over. And when I look back through my life, there is a very pronounced pattern of me being drawn like a moth to the flame, to very charismatic, funny kind of rebelly people. And I get sucked right in. And then I realize once I'm kind of in the inner circle, oh my God, this person's unpredictable. This person trashes people that leave the room. This person has major mood swings. And then I literally go into a mode of just twisting myself in knots to not upset the person.
Dr. Ramani (00:15:29):
Correct. And that is actually, that's actually a trauma response. Twisting yourself into knots to not upset the person or even like, oh, you're so great. The fawning response. These are classic trauma responses.
Mel Robbins (00:15:42):
And it took a couple really painful experiences back to back to have me look backwards. It was almost like life hit me with a sledgehammer.
Dr. Ramani (00:15:52):
And I think that that's what it is too. You and I both worked in the media and you in a much more profound way than me. But I have to say over the many years I've done this, what I've always seen was the charming, charismatic, grandiose people never, ever followed through on their promises and sometimes almost to my very real financial harm and all of that. And that happened in academia, that happened in other areas of my life. And so I think for me, those things have become correlated in my mind.
(00:16:23):
Big talker, big promise, big, big, big, all that big talk. It never comes to fruition. And I got hurt by this. So when we talk about classical conditioning, it's like Pavlov's dogs, right? This elevating dog, when they heard the bell, for me it's charming. Charisma means you're about to either betray me or you're just full of bs. But a lot of harm had to come to me to learn that lesson. And when I connected the dots to my own childhood and my own experiences, I saw, I could see how I got played. And like I said, now it comes off as a little bit closed off. I wouldn't be surprised if people would think that about me. And I do think that this is though, in order for all of us to become more narcissist resistant, we need people around us that will back us up. And where I'm really blessed, at least professionally, is a team that calls bs. They'll read emails like, nah, no, no, yes, no, yes. And then I'll go deeper in. And sometimes I'll like, yeah, sure. And they'll say, listen, it's your gig. You call that one, but we don't love this.
(00:17:29):
Did I hear that right? In fact, the other night I had had an experience that was really uncomfortable and I was like, well, was that uncomfortable? And I remember my team like that sucked. And I was like, oh. So that if you have the people around you who are actually able to be authentic and call out bs, that's also another way you become more resistant to this nonsense versus almost it almost like having siblings that bond together. Like healthy siblings. Yes, healthy siblings, not siblings that throw you under the bus. Right? And I think that because the problem is a lot of people are surrounded by enablers. Oh, come on. He kind seems like a nice guy and he's cute. He's from the same place. And I'm like, he's invalidating you. I don't care. Nobody's that cute.
Mel Robbins (00:18:16):
I'm sorry. As a mom now I'm like thinking about my daughters. So what is love bombing? So
Dr. Ramani (00:18:23):
Love bombing is where the charm and charisma turn into behavior. It's the early phase of any narcissistic relationship. We tend to only use this term for romantic relationships. It can happen in friendships, workplace, you name it anywhere. It is this intense and overwhelming, I'm going to call it a courtship where a person is, it's almost an obsessive fascination with you as a person trying to win you over the classical kind of tropey love bombing is on your first date, you go to the best restaurant in town, then they get the concert tickets no one can get. And on your third date you fly to Paris and you dance till 6:00 AM on the beach. And it's so exciting and they make a scavenger hunt for you and they get you gifts. And every Friday there's a dozen roses waiting for you. That's love bombing. It's fairytale. It's larger than life. But I think if we only use that trope, it's tricky.
Mel Robbins (00:19:24):
Simple. Yeah, I was just going to say it's simple. Who can afford to do that? Simple? I'm like, how
Dr. Ramani (00:19:28):
Do you do that on a blue collar budget? I'll tell you me, how you take people to whatever's considered the best restaurant and a two year budget, the person's still going to think that's great. They'll pack. They'll say, let's go on a drive to wherever. The cool place to go on the drive is I'm going to show you the coolest view you've ever seen in your life. They'll buy things it might not
Mel Robbins (00:19:47):
Be. It's like the whis you off your feet. I'm proving to you it's
Dr. Ramani (00:19:51):
The goodnight princess. Good morning. I can't start my day without thinking about you. And then there'll be subtle things like take a picture where you're at. I just want to see where you're at. To me, that's this person stalking you. Why do they need to know where you're at? Of course I am the anti romance. Do not find me on Valentine's Day. Well, those is fine,
Mel Robbins (00:20:11):
But not on the second date.
Dr. Ramani (00:20:13):
But it's a lot of that. It's it's intense contact. But love bombing just doesn't look like that. Love bombing may become really intense, almost oversharing really early in the game. They're laying out this really deep profound, true or untrue story about their past, about their childhood, about what they're feeling. And for some people that's the play because they'll say, oh my gosh, this person's sharing so much, they're so vulnerable. And now you're kind of in because they've shared so much love bombing can be too much time together. Our first date lasted two weeks. I'm like, do you even have a job? What kind? I'm like, what kind of first date? Last two weeks? So when people say that stuff are like, I knew right away I was like, trauma bond. The minute people say that, I know that sounds so cold, but it's actually not. It is. This sort of people might say, when I first saw them, I was really attracted to them, but not like I knew right away. But the two week first date, there's this intense intention. They spend so much time together. I canceled all my plans to be with them. Their lease came up and yeah, we'd only been together a month, but we decided to move in together fast, fast, fast, fast, fast. The fastness is also a part of love bombing.
(00:21:28):
It's an intensity. It's what I call an intense indoctrination into another person. They're winning you over when you're being love bombed. You're so distracted by the sharing, by the obsession, by the texting, by the emails, by the gifts, by the quickness that you're not noticing the red flags.
Mel Robbins (00:21:49):
So what do you do if you're a friend? Because I think oftentimes if you see this happening to a friend or you as the friend on the outside start to have the red flags go up and you say something to your friend, maybe you guys should take it a little easier. Or I hear he wasn't that great with his last girlfriend, or you just tried. How do you approach it if you're the friend,
Dr. Ramani (00:22:12):
Don't drop a dime on the other person because the minute you try, what do drop a dime? The meaning's, like I heard, they weren't great with their other person. He's moving real fast. It's something we learned from doing treatment with substance users is do not make them defend their behavior and don't make them defend the narcissist. The minute you say he wasn't great with his former partner. Yeah. Have you ever met his former partner and now they're defending them? Never do that. You got to find the back door. So how do you find the backdoor
Mel Robbins (00:22:38):
With a loved one?
Dr. Ramani (00:22:39):
You say, talk to me about your new relationship. How are you feeling? How are you doing? And they'll tell you the story. Wow, that's a lot happening. How do you feel about that? You might be more likely for them to say, yeah, it is a lot. I'm trying to go with it. I've always felt like I don't deserve a fairytale. Now I'm getting the fairytale. And say, what feels fairytale ish about that to you? You're trying to get them to talk without getting them to defend the narcissistic person. Listen, I'm basically trying right now to train people to use therapy tricks here, but that's really what it is. I think we're so quick to say I don't like him. The first thing they're going to do is defend him. You've got to get them to talk about the relationship. So they start spilling on like, oh, I don't know about this.
(00:23:26):
What do you mean you don't know about this? And let them talk and say, well, if you're feeling like that, do you think, do you feel okay? Maybe, I don't know. Take a step back. You can do that because it sounds like this person cares about you so much. And I mean that's a little manipulative, but if you're trying to save someone money, you try all the tricks. But what you're trying to do is give them permission maybe to slow down, to pull back or saying he wants to move in right away and say you love having your own place. So how do you feel about that? Get them to talk about the thing that they value, which is to having their own place versus what kind of fool wants to move into your apartment in a month. Right,
Mel Robbins (00:24:07):
I got it. That's very, very clear. So if you're spotting this, just get them to talk open-ended questions. Do not say anything that makes them defend. So interesting. I can look backwards now and see as a parent, several mistakes that I made.
Dr. Ramani (00:24:24):
Because as parents too, Mel, we're so quick in there to want to protect our kids. I think nowhere else do we see that reactive, bad, bad, bad. And it's almost like you can feel the clenching in yourself of saying, well, talk to me about this friendship. And inside you're like, leave them. I hope you never talk to them again. Rah. But you can't because everybody, when they're ambivalent about something and we raise the thing that they're ambivalent about as being bad, their reactive response is to defend that thing ambivalent.
Mel Robbins (00:24:54):
It makes a lot of sense. It seems like you can't talk about narcissism, particularly in the dating world without the term gaslighting coming up. Can you explain what gaslighting is?
Dr. Ramani (00:25:04):
Right. So gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse. It's a form of manipulation, but it is a doubting of reality followed up with making someone feel impaired. So it's not just lying, right? It's not like I didn't move the checkbook. That's a lie. Okay, they did move the checkbook. It's not that never happened. That's a lie. It did. Alright, so that up to the first part of gaslighting is lying. It's the second part of it that makes it gaslighting, which is the, you say we use a simple example. Did you move the checkbook? I always keep it in this drawer. No, I didn't move the checkbook. Are you sure you didn't move the checkbooks always in this drawer? You know what your memory has been going lately. This isn't the first time and you've been so distracted and stressed. In fact, it's affecting our relationship. Have you thought about talking to someone? Now it's become a conversation about how you have memory problems and are distracted and stressed out of your mind. But they actually did move the checkbook.
Mel Robbins (00:26:11):
I had this situation, I can't really go into it in great detail, but dealing with a narcissist and a work relationship where I knew something was up, I would say, blah, blah, blah, about the issue. And they would lie and then they would point it back. But you've been
Dr. Ramani (00:26:30):
So busy. Correct?
Mel Robbins (00:26:32):
I handled it
Dr. Ramani (00:26:32):
Correct, bing
Mel Robbins (00:26:34):
Over and over. And then the closer I got to the truth, the more I noticed this rage like this in the narcissists that I now see that I have dealt with, whether it's in work or in life or relationships or friendships, there's always this moment that I call that in the Bravo Real Housewives of New Jersey, that famous clip where that woman flips over the table.
Dr. Ramani (00:27:00):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:27:01):
And I
Dr. Ramani (00:27:01):
Don't even watch it. And I know that it's
Mel Robbins (00:27:02):
Like rage.
Dr. Ramani (00:27:03):
Yeah, it's rage. Yeah. That's a great narcissistic moment. So narcissistic rage is a thing. Oh, it's absolutely a thing. It's because it's a rage that's set off by their thin skinned, reactive sensitivity. Something that does not require a table being flipped over. I dunno that anything anyone could say to you would be a table being flipped over, right? I mean, short of, I don't know. I killed your best friend. I suppose I might flip a table over at that point. But short of that, no table flipping and these very dramatic dysregulated gestures and afterwards they'll soft pedal it or downplay it or give you a pseudo apology and then just do it again.
Mel Robbins (00:27:48):
Yeah. Wow. Are there other forms of gaslighting that might surprise us? There's that sort of lying and then flipping it back on you. But are there other forms of gaslighting that surprise people?
Dr. Ramani (00:28:04):
In some ways there's other things that are gaslighting. Like the silent treatment in a way can have a gaslighting feel because you start feeling like you're losing your mind. That's a great example of a gaslighting behavior at some level. Denial can have a gaslighting feel. Again, gaslighting in its purest form is the denial of reality and then telling you there's something wrong with you. That's the sequence of it. But it is. But it can take kinds of these other sorts of can't you take a joke is a great example of gaslighting.
Mel Robbins (00:28:43):
You're too sensitive.
Dr. Ramani (00:28:44):
Yeah, you're too sensitive. You take a joke is a great example of they insult. You have a reaction to that that was not okay. That was in front of a group of people. What were you thinking? I didn't mean it that way. I mean, you take a joke. So now you are this sort of hypersensitized, hyper reactive person who can't take something that was allegedly a joke, even though the tone or anything. Can't you take a joke? And again, I mean I think comics do this all the time. I mean, I don't know. Being a comedian relationship is probably a tough, because probably everything's is a joke, right? But that's another great example. Something you don't realize. It's a gaslighting.
Mel Robbins (00:29:23):
Okay, so now we are at the point of the podcast where I feel like we have popped the popcorn and everybody listening is going, oh God, I'm spotting narcissists everywhere. So let's start to talk about what do you do?
Dr. Ramani (00:29:36):
What
Mel Robbins (00:29:37):
Do you do? And let's start with the example. How do you break up with a narcissist?
Dr. Ramani (00:29:43):
Not every narcissistic relationship ends. Keep this in mind. I think that should it. Listen, if I ran the world, sure, but I don't run the world. And I also know that for some people they're saying, you know what? I'm not going to divorce my parent. There's reasons of culture, reasons of other people in my family that matter to me, my own sense of duty and obligation and responsibility. I see them clearly now though, and I'm going to interact with them differently, but I'm not going to end all contact with them. Okay? There are many people, I'd say 50% of people in narcissistic marriages stay and long-term committed relationships stay. And I understand that. And I don't think that there should be a pressure to go because when there's that pressure to go, what I see is a lost opportunity to help that person heal and grow even while they stay in it.
Mel Robbins (00:30:29):
So by the person heal and grow, you're talking about the person who's in the
Dr. Ramani (00:30:33):
Relationship. Because
Mel Robbins (00:30:34):
As we learn in the very beginning, you can't change the weather in Chicago and you cannot change.
Dr. Ramani (00:30:39):
We're not changing the narciss. That's not even on the
Mel Robbins (00:30:40):
Table. And it's important for everybody to hear this because you're listening to the world's leading expert on this who has had a clinical practice, who has been an academic, who is sought after by everybody on this topic. You have been in clinical settings treating narcissists who have come in looking for help because it now serves them because the board of directors is now getting ready to fire them or their spouse is ready to divorce
Dr. Ramani (00:31:08):
Them, or they genuinely feel that everyone's out to get them their, I mean, remember narcissistic people are very victimized if things aren't going their way, everyone's out to get me. I have a target on my back, witch hunt, witch hunt, that kind of thing. How come everyone's out to get me? How come life's so unfair to me?
Mel Robbins (00:31:24):
And if you are in a clinical setting and you are working with a narcissist who is self-motivated to try to change, how much can they change?
Dr. Ramani (00:31:37):
That's a great question. So I've worked with many clients like this. You're going to get the best we can hope for is a little bit more accountability. They'll still have rage, but they might catch it and apologize a little bit more. They are still going to roll their eyes when they don't want to listen to someone. But they'll maybe do it less. They'll huff and puff when they're made to wait in the line at the airport, but they won't scream at the gate agent. They can sprint through some stuff. You can get 'em to sprint through some stuff, but they're never going to be marathoners. They're still going to drop the ball a lot. I've worked with people who, once they learned what it meant to stop being this way, which meant empathy, listening to people being present, holding space for them, being accountable for their bad behavior, not angry at people or sharing their feelings.
(00:32:41):
Had one person say to me, this is what this is about. And I said, yeah. So he said, I want to break in therapy for a little while. And in that period of time, he divorced his wife and broke up with his mistress. And I said, oh. And he's like, you know what? He said, I don't want to hurt these people. I really don't want to hurt people, but I can see they're getting hurt. And you've clearly pointed that out in here that I am hurting them because I would say that, how do you think they felt? We did a lot of what's called mentalization work, forcing the person to think about how do you think that other person feels? And in a therapy room, if they scream at me, I'd be like, bye out. You're not my client anymore. So he said, I don't want to hurt them, but I don't want to listen to them. I'm not interested in their bs. I'm not interested in their feelings. I could do it for 10 minutes, but this hours thing, no, I want to live in my own place and I'll miss sex. So I found someone and I pay her every two weeks and she comes by and I don't want her to wake up next to me. Sounds like a real peach, but was, you know what I'd say kind of a peach. I wasn't mad at him. His ex-wife can now go and find is no longer chase. She may still wonder, why
Mel Robbins (00:33:59):
So what do you do if you, if you're the ex-wife? Because I think one of the other things that I've learned from you is that the damage that a narcissist
Dr. Ramani (00:34:05):
Does, she's got to go do her work now. And what is that work? That work is learning about narcissism? Understanding you are not to blame. It's almost like a person that's going to be less frustrated by their car breaking down if they know how their car works. So now you're like, oh, this mechanic's taking advantage of me. I'm like, nah, now you know how to change your own carburetor. Like I'm teaching you how to fix this thing. And the fix is not in them. It's in you. Because remember, you ain't changing the
Mel Robbins (00:34:36):
Weather in Chicago. You're not changing the weather in Chicago. And ultimately the person that you treated that would do these very intense visualization exercises to try to understand empathy, the only thing that happened is that he gained the knowledge to go, I'm not doing that.
Dr. Ramani (00:34:52):
And here's the thing though, that to me is a form of empathy because I'll tell you this, instead of saying, well, she needs to step up, she needs to meet me where I'm at. He's like, I don't want to hurt these people and I am going to keep hurting them because if you think I'm going to sit here and listen to their BS feelings without rolling my eyes, you are
Mel Robbins (00:35:12):
High. Dr. Ramini, you have really helped me because there were some major takeaways that I've learned from you. One being that you don't change the weather in Chicago. You're not changing the behavior of a narcissist or the brain of one second, that narcissists are made during childhood. They're not necessarily born that way.
Dr. Ramani (00:35:35):
They're not. They're definitely not born that way.
Mel Robbins (00:35:36):
The third thing is that if it's truly somebody with a narcissistic personality, they don't even know they're doing it. It's not like it is a conscious behavior. It is so ingrained in how they behave that it's like a reaction to situations.
Dr. Ramani (00:35:55):
Correct. But this is an important flip I need to make on that because people say, well, if they don't know, then I can't be mad at them. To which I say, yes, you can. We recently had a YouTube video, I think it's come out or it's coming out soon, basically is that multiple things can be true.
(00:36:11):
And nowhere is that more true than in a narcissistic relationship. This person had a tough childhood. Yep. This person invalidates me every day. Yep. We have kids together. Yep. They're not going to stop doing this. Yep. You see what I'm saying? Yes. All those things can be true. At the same time, what is the most important truth?
Mel Robbins (00:36:30):
For somebody that is listening right now who realizes, oh my God, I'm in a relationship with a narcissist. What is the most important truth that you want that person to start to think about and embrace?
Dr. Ramani (00:36:47):
This is not your fault. You're not responsible for somebody else's behavior. You're not even at some level, maybe we could say that about our children's behavior to a point, but even if there's a point that that goes away, right? You are not responsible for Well, they're reacting to me. No, they're reacting. And there's other ways to react. So they could calmly say to you, I don't like how you're talking to me and I need a minute. Can teach them those things. They can go to therapy and learn that, but they feel entitled to their reactions. They feel entitled to their rage. This is how I react. This is who I am. And that's the other thing you'll hear authentically. This is who I am to which I want people to say, then maybe that doesn't work for you. And listen, Mel, there's many a person out there who waits till their youngest child turns 18 and that's the day they file for divorce.
Mel Robbins (00:37:36):
Yep.
Dr. Ramani (00:37:37):
Wow.
Mel Robbins (00:37:38):
The other thing that I learned from you today that was just a game changer was when you said you are trained to believe that doing something that a narcissist doesn't like is wrong. That's where the guilt comes.
Dr. Ramani (00:37:54):
That's
Mel Robbins (00:37:54):
Where from comes from, that you learned guilt because somebody made you believe that it's wrong to disappoint
Dr. Ramani (00:38:02):
Them. Correct? Correct. And because you learned that, you learned that as a child, that is one of those things that gets indoctrinated in childhood. And then you carry that into any relationship where there feels like there's a power difference or somebody is more dominant. And that's why people like this will repeat these cycles at work, repeat them in intimate relationships and even do,
Mel Robbins (00:38:20):
What do you do if your boss is narcissistic, they're constantly raging at you, they're unpredictable. They take credit for everything. How do you handle that situation?
Dr. Ramani (00:38:30):
Here's the thing, workplace situations are interesting because I understand people need jobs and some times people say, I am never going to find a job that pays me this much making and I'm my primary breadwinner in my situation. Then we go back to that radical acceptance. You are in a job where you're going to be rage in the workplace. I say to people, you got to document the hell out of this. You got to make sure you don't take meetings alone. You save every email, you save every voicemail, you save every text message. Because if you ever need to engage in any kind of HR or litigation, you're going to need that. It's impossible to push on workplace issues without that. And even then, workplace bullying isn't against the law. It's not. And so it's really, really hard to do that much with it.
Mel Robbins (00:39:14):
When you say radical acceptance, what exactly does that mean? You're in a situation, I saw this early in my career. I was a lawyer. I was a public defender first, and then when we moved to Boston, I worked in a large law firm and the amount of yelling that came out of partners offices and the shaming and the just demeaning way that people were spoken to and yelled at during the hallway, and it was tolerated because that dude brought a lot of money into
Dr. Ramani (00:39:41):
The firm. Exactly. It's what I call the golden goose phenomenon. And it's why in a workplace, if you recognize the golden goose phenomenon as a play, meaning that there's no way the people higher up in the leadership are going to remove this rager because they're bringing in too much money. Nobody kills the golden goose. Then you have to ask yourself, where do I fit into this? I mean, in most cases, Mel, I had to say that the only good ending to it, either if you're lucky, and this is luck, when that narcissistic manager, boss or person is removed, usually because institutional organizational settings kind of stink from the head down. There's a culture that was tolerate that was sort of
Mel Robbins (00:40:18):
Fostered. Same in the
Dr. Ramani (00:40:19):
Family. Yeah. It's very unlikely that that will happen. But sometimes people get lucky in their one division that happens. But if that doesn't happen, most people need to ultimately leave. It can be a huge career change. People will say, I'm out. I cannot work like this. Some people might modify what they do. They'll say, you know what? I'm going to take a huge financial risk and I'm going to put out my legal shingle and I'm going to open a small practice. I'm sorry. There's way too many companies and jobs out there that tolerate that bullshit. I agree. And it's taken years off. In fact, this kind of workplace antagonism is a unique kind of stress that has actually been found to be quite associated with physical health problems. And I think a lot of that is because for some reason, workplace narcissistic abuse keeps people up at night.
(00:41:05):
And I think it's, you come home, you're exhausted, and then you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like, I can't. What am I? I'm going to get control tomorrow. Ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate. And that goes on day after day after day. I mean, these are bosses who have no problem calling, interrupting a person on their vacation saying, get in here and now. And you're having to clean up their mistakes. Like you said, they take credit for your work. They gaslight. These are environments of fear. It's very triangulated where some people trying to get on the good side of the narcissistic person, I mean, it's chaos. It's chaos. And I have never seen anyone successfully pull it off. You'll even see in some of the higher profile, me too, narcissism scandals. We've seen people are like, I just want to work on one film that gets an Oscar and that's going to help my career. But you know what? You have to live with the moral injury for the rest of your life that you were part of that machine.
Mel Robbins (00:41:53):
And you're not going to change the weather in Chicago.
Dr. Ramani (00:41:56):
You're not going to change the weather in Chicago. And you're also going to have to live with this blood on your hands, which is a different level that people in workplace settings will sometimes say, this is what I worked in and what does that make me?
Mel Robbins (00:42:06):
So I want to end with some tools that people can use. So one of the ones that you talk about that whenever I share it, I obviously credit you that people just love this. And that's gray rock.
Dr. Ramani (00:42:20):
Yeah. So gray rocking and that, I can't even take credit from that. Gray rocking is something that's been around for a long time, and gray rocking is gray. Rocking is a response to the constant baiting that happens in a narcissistic relationship. Narcissistic people love to fight because it makes you look crazy. If you're getting frothed up now you're raging kind of like them and they're like, oh, you need to calm down. That's a form of gaslighting too. They get you worked up and then they look at you like you're the one who's unhinged. The way in some ways to bring down that baiting is just completely disengaged in the most absolute. But you're not going no contact, but you're saying yes. No. Okay, I didn't know that. Sure. Now,
Mel Robbins (00:43:04):
Let me ask you a question about this, because in our family, somebody has had a situation where there was an ex blowing up their phone and Snapchat, rage, rage, rage, rage, rage. Which once I learned that this was happening, a lot of other young women chimed in, oh, well, I've had somebody do that and it's been dismissed because they're drunk or because they're this or because they're upset, or because I'm the ex or because I'm dating somebody new and we're talking 75 texts over the course of one evening, pick up your phone. Why aren't you? I know you're ignoring me. It's
Dr. Ramani (00:43:44):
Abuse. That's abuse.
Mel Robbins (00:43:45):
So when it comes to that, you don't respond at all because aren't they looking for the response, they seeking the attention
Dr. Ramani (00:43:56):
Right now you can see it a situation like this with gray rocking. You're like, okay, I'm not responding to this kind of stuff. The behavior's going to escalate for a while. And that escalation scares people. And gray rocking, if you're going to Gray Rock as a pathway to an exit to what's ultimately called no contact, which is a really, really stringent characteristic that a lot of people can't follow because they're families. They have to co-parent all those things, whatever it may be full, no contact is. When people do it, they're like, this is great. I never have to have anything to do with them again. But it's not always possible. So the gray rocking will initially enrage the narcissistic person. If you can white knuckle it for long enough,
Mel Robbins (00:44:39):
How long? It depends on the person. This is an excellent, excellent example for those of you that are in a contentious divorce, for those of you that are dealing with child custody issues. And so you have to negotiate after divorce drop-offs or exes. And so pay attention to this because you are correct. If you ignore them, they explode because they want your attention. And so now they're going to escalate it to try to get it.
Dr. Ramani (00:45:04):
So now this is where's a friend and colleague of mine developed something called Yellow Rock. Tina Swen, who does amazing work in the space of contentious narcissistic divorce. She came up with Yellow Rock and the idea of Yellow Rock is not so much the yes no, you're almost like so dull. But it's like, yeah, sure. Oh, okay, yeah, great. There's emotion, there's lilt. There might even be like, oh, you went there. Oh, did you like that? Oh, that's that new grocery store. Right? You're not talking about anything but Yellow Rock isn't so dire. Now, in your obsessive texting example, that's a different kind of a situation because that's a case where you just don't respond correct and you save it all. And if it continues like that, you actually might even need to involve law enforcement. We involved Chris, my husband, he's sent a text back saying,
Mel Robbins (00:45:57):
We'll involve
Dr. Ramani (00:45:58):
Law
Mel Robbins (00:45:58):
Enforcement.
Dr. Ramani (00:45:58):
Yeah, exactly.
Mel Robbins (00:45:59):
Knock it off.
Dr. Ramani (00:46:00):
It worked. Yeah, it worked It in many cases, but in some cases it does not. And there's actually a threshold of the number of communications that have to happen for it to qualify to get law enforcement involved. So it can't be 10 or 20. I mean, it's such a vast number. They're like, oh. So for me to be fully traumatized is the only way law enforcement will respond. And it's true. Those bars are set in a way that ridiculous. It's hard to intervene ridiculous. But in ordinary situations where it is a lot of the, they're trying, where were you on Saturday night? What were you doing? Oh, your friend coming over and say, oh yeah, everything's fine. It's very stepfordy. But for kids to see gray rocking parents actually is quite traumatizing. That devoid of emotion robotic feel is unsettling for kids. It can be unsettling in the workplace. So with yellow rocking, I always say to people, have a list of inert innocuous topics to talk about the weather. The freeway's going to be closed on Friday. Can you believe it's only a month till this holiday?
Dr. Ramani (00:47:06):
You have those topics in your back pocket, and then there can be a lot of that. And once they start baiting, then the next technique I recommend people use after gray or yellow rocking is I tell them, don't go deep and don't go deep means don't defend. Don't engage, don't explain. Don't personalize.
Mel Robbins (00:47:24):
Oh, that was an acronym. Everybody.
Dr. Ramani (00:47:27):
Yeah, deep. Don't
Mel Robbins (00:47:28):
Defend. Don't explain. Don't, don't engage.
Dr. Ramani (00:47:30):
Engage. Don't personalize. What
Mel Robbins (00:47:32):
Does, don't personalize mean? So can you give us an
Dr. Ramani (00:47:34):
Example of how this works? So a person's coming at you with like, oh, great, great. Yeah, I can see, oh, what is this One of your loser friends having one of their stupid fundraisings for one more of their causes? Like, yeah, your friend's like an idiot loser. So sure, yeah. Well, let's give this person more money. I don't even know why you're friends with these people. Is that how pathetic? So the noise, they come at you trying to isolate you. Right? You don't defend your friends. You don't say, oh, she means so well, she's raised so much money for this community. You don't explain what the charity does. You don't engage in the back and forth and you don't make it about you. This has nothing to do with you. That has to do with their insecurity, their
Mel Robbins (00:48:22):
Temper
Dr. Ramani (00:48:22):
Tantrum, their tantrum, their insecurity. They're being set off. And this is a hard one. People say, I told Mary I was going, I rsvp. I'm going to be going. Do you say I'm sorry. No. Why? What did you do wrong? I I'm conditioned to, I dunno. I want to keep you happy. I sorry, I dunno, girl, if I could set up an app that could identify you could shock me, my Lord, that every time a person says, I'm sorry, they did get a little shock through there. Watch or
Mel Robbins (00:48:58):
That is ring. It is the worst thing you could say to a narcissist. I, I'm sorry.
Dr. Ramani (00:49:01):
No, it's the worst thing you could say for yourself. Why are you apologizing? We're back to the guilt
Mel Robbins (00:49:06):
Because I have been conditioned to believe that if I do something that makes you mad or disappointed or isn't what you want, that I'm bad.
Dr. Ramani (00:49:15):
That's you. That's a you thing. That's your work. Because God, I'm going to Mary fundraiser. So to do, I'm going to Mary's fundraiser, Dr. Why should I say I'm sorry I RSVP'd four weeks ago. I am not getting into Mary's character assassination because you feel threatened and none of that RSVPed. A month ago, I'm planning on going, I'll be leaving at seven. Done. You do it with a smile on your face. I'll
Mel Robbins (00:49:40):
Tell you, I just sit here and think, why on earth would you put up with that in your life? Maybe I'm bad. The good. You know what I mean? Maybe not combative. And I'm like, listen asshole, I make my own money and I'm going to give it to whoever the fuck I want. Mel,
Dr. Ramani (00:49:56):
It's the good days in the bad days because you actually had a really nice dinner out on Saturday night
Mel Robbins (00:50:01):
And they had a bad day today and they're stressed out and they had a lot of childhood trauma
Dr. Ramani (00:50:05):
And relationships are hard and everything's compromised and they don't really mean it and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So if you could break, get into the multiple truths, break out. Oh, there's multiple truth. Say I can't be judgey. I'm sorry. I am married to a person who's an asshole. I was just going to to say deeply insecure and reactive, which is code for see asshole's. The one tiny word that gets at that. But I am married to a deeply insecure person who is a rager, that is who I'm married to. And say that sentence out loud. It all relates to a concept called cognitive dissonance. We don't like it when incompatible things are happening.
Mel Robbins (00:50:46):
That's true.
Dr. Ramani (00:50:46):
So to break the tension we justify.
Mel Robbins (00:50:48):
That's true. So it's like the truth. The things that are true are I am married to somebody who's an asshole, who's an insecure jerk because of childhood drama, whatever, and rages. I also have children with this person. I also don't want to go through the nightmare of divorcing this person. I'm going to work on my own stuff in order to have that cognitive psychological dissidence in order to figure out my own stuff. But
Dr. Ramani (00:51:15):
You can see after you do all that, you know how people feel. They feel sad. They're like, this is my life.
Mel Robbins (00:51:20):
Yes. Because once you actually wake up and do the work. Yes.
Dr. Ramani (00:51:23):
And that's it.
Mel Robbins (00:51:24):
You just did a Trojan horse. We want you to go to therapy so you become more confident and more self-aware that you actually do not deserve this car. This is not your fault. The weather in Chicago is something you can't change.
Dr. Ramani (00:51:38):
Oh, sneaky. I like that. That's all.
Mel Robbins (00:51:41):
I like that kind of personal
Dr. Ramani (00:51:42):
Empowerment. You've got to all about. Therapy is always about finding those back doors and you can't walk in the front door. We learned that in day one of therapy class.
Mel Robbins (00:51:49):
Yeah. That's amazing. Wow. You are so
Dr. Ramani (00:51:52):
Smart.
Mel Robbins (00:51:53):
You are so, so smart. So one takeaway, or what takeaways do you want people to really talking to somebody who just had a wake up call? Because we also learned that if you truly are somebody that has a narcissistic personality, you are thinking that none of this applies to you.
(00:52:11):
But if you are listening and you're starting to think of people in your life, whether it's at work or friendships or siblings or the person that you're in a relationship with, or parents or grandparents,
Mel Robbins (00:52:24):
What are some of the key takeaways that you hope people have gained from this doctor?
Dr. Ramani (00:52:31):
You're not to blame for someone else's personality. You can't change them. You have the right to your independent autonomous life separate from other people, opinions, feelings, needs, and above all else. I want to let people know that there are many people out there who hear this and say, well, I got to go. I got to leave this relationship. And some people do. They end contact or really suspend contact with a family member or even a parent. They may end a romantic relationship. They may start doubting their own marriage. They may even consider quitting a job or whatever. But then they start saying, but I want to go back, but I missed the person. But I'm having second thoughts, but we're getting back together. But I showed up at the family wedding anyhow. And what I tell people is, this isn't about an all or nothing and you will be pulled back because there's no talking your way out of a trauma bond. A trauma bond is something you feel some people will say, the idea of no longer talking to my mom or no longer being this marriage, I feel sick.
(00:53:44):
I can't do this. I literally feel sick inside of me. So that's a real physical feeling and it's understanding that these incompatibilities leave us feeling uncomfortable. We do get pulled back in for me to keep saying to people, this is not going to change and it is not your fault and it is all internal to them and this is what the apparatus looks like. But even on those days when you feel sad, because this is a landscape characterized by grief. This was my childhood. I never got to have a real childhood. I didn't ever let my dreams launch. I got into a crappy marriage. I may never have a normal adult relationship. I screwed up my kids. This is real grief. There's no soft pedals. You don't get a do over on this stuff. And so for people, some of these negative emotions do echo through a lifetime, and I wish I could sit here and say something fluffy and one day you'll never think about this again.
(00:54:42):
What I want to tell people is that you're going to learn to coexist with that pain and you're slowly going to find your voice. And it's almost like if you had a really bad accident or injury, even if you could fully do your physical therapy and heal every so often, you're going to step on that leg the wrong way. You're going to be like, ouch. And you're reminded, and it doesn't all just go away. You start learning the workarounds and you understand that there's going to be good days and bad days because I think setting an overly sunny kind of a path forward for healing can lead people who feel like they're not healing fast enough, feeling ashamed, and as though they can't even heal, right? There is no healing, right? This will take as long as it takes. There will be good days and bad, but if you're willing to give yourself permission to take yourself and reality back, there actually is a path forward.
(00:55:33):
And survivors of narcissistic abuse often go on to do amazing things. They write amazing things. There's a creativity and it's almost like a WTF of it all. Like, all right, at this point, why not I survived this mess? Why not? And they'll do some really cool fun. They'll blog, they'll self-publish books. They'll start businesses. They'll go back to school. I remember one woman I worked with, and she's like, I went back to school. I was 75 when I graduated, but I finally finished college after being told I was in a moron, a fool and ass for 50 years. And she's like, I'm not going to work. But I did it. And the pride that was felt, the survivor stories are remarkable. They're small, they're big. It's the person. My favorite was the person who said, she's an amazing cook and a malignant narcissistic marriage many, many years.
(00:56:32):
She baked his favorite cake and she gave it to people who were homeless in her neighborhood, and she's like, eat this because I'm never eating this kind of cake. And they loved it. And so some people actually said, I actually cooked their favorite meal and threw it out. Some people don't like to throw out food. I get that some people had a big blowout party on the night of what would've been their malignant, narcissistic ex's birthday party and said, I got to put this behind me. This can take so many forms. Some people go back to school and become therapists. Some people become coaches. They help people through it.
Mel Robbins (00:57:03):
You, what I love about this, Dr. Ramini, is that when you understand something, and there is this intense fascination with narcissism, and so many of us have experiences with it, but when you understand it and when you have a few simple tools from an expert like you, it does become an opportunity for growth. It becomes an opportunity for self-awareness, for self-compassion, that just because the weather in Chicago can't be changed and you can't change what that other person is doing, that multiple things can be true. But the thing that we know is always true is that if you're willing to put in the work, you can make the situation that you're in better for yourself because you can change the way that you show up. You can change the boundaries that you have. You can change the way that you internalize things or not.
Dr. Ramani (00:57:58):
And people who are going through these relationships are sometimes thinking, I almost don't want to be happy because it's such a contrast to what I'm in this relationship. So it's a sense of, okay, maybe I'm, I'm not going to take care of me because me not taking care of me fits. It's again, that making it all fit. I say find those ways because
Dr. Ramani (00:58:20):
I call them these tiny acts of rebellion the way you squeeze in. Because if you exercise and they know about it, like, oh, why are you wasting time? You must have a lot of leisure time if you can exercise. But you realize, I have 18 minutes before they get home and you jump on the treadmill or you throw on the yoga channel on your whatever YouTube you watch and you do it, you find these tiny acts of rebellion that you could do.
(00:58:46):
You have a goal, and each day for 365 days, you do one thing towards the goal and maybe you finish that degree online. And here's the win. Never ever tell the narcissistic person your dreams. Never ever tell them your aspirations because they will mock you and they will dismantle you, and they will even try to get in the way of them. The rebellion is to go and pursue those dreams without them ever knowing. And once you've done it, you've done it. You don't even have to share it. And what's really fun to watch is when the narcissist hear it from someone else, like, wow, did you hear about that whole thing they set up? And the princip? Like, why didn't you tell me? And you're like, ah, it didn't seem like that big a deal, and you just get it in there, but never share your dreams with them.
Mel Robbins (00:59:28):
Wow. I'm thinking about this moment in a speech where I was in the audience and it was a women's conference, and this woman stood up and she was talking about how she had this massive dream of getting this degree online and that her husband wouldn't allow it. And I remember thinking how sad it was to realize that she was trapped in this life. And the thing that I want to say is that these tiny acts of rebellion, if you feel like you're trapped in this and there's multiple things that are true, these tiny 18 minute moments of rebellion are almost like digging a tunnel. They are. That allow you over time to escape because every time you do something that is for you
Dr. Ramani (01:00:18):
First
Mel Robbins (01:00:19):
And you don't feel the need to share it or get permission, and you keep showing up every day, and you do that exercise or you do that meditation, or you take that online class and you don't seek the permission or validation from that narcissist, if you start to exercise that muscle, at some point, you're going to wake up and you're going to realize, oh my God, I'm actually above ground and outside the jail.
Dr. Ramani (01:00:42):
Why
Mel Robbins (01:00:42):
Did I stay in that? Okay, I'm not going to validate myself, but I'm ready to make a big change. Now,
Dr. Ramani (01:00:47):
You start to see, I can do stuff You by doing those tiny acts of rebellion, there's something in you that gets awoken. You're like, I can do stuff, and maybe I am strong enough to do this or to do that. You meet other people, you get validated in different ways. You get the A on the paper and the professor says, wow, why aren't you going to graduate school after all those years of being invalidated, to have someone say, here's something special about you. Just that one conversation can change the course of somebody's life, but that's only going to happen when you do all these tiny acts of rebellion, and that might be one of the most important steps to survivorship. This isn't about storming out and like, oh, I'm leaving you, but you can do all these little things. I know leaving can feel overwhelming for people and whatever that might be, it might be reading an entire set of literature, might be learning another language. You can do that on your own time too. But whatever it looks like that somehow getting that new skill, actualizing that dream and not letting them know about it or harm, it can awaken something in you, the real you that may actually allow you to start really distancing from this relationship, if not physically. Definitely psychologically.
Mel Robbins (01:01:57):
I just also felt really empowered because I realized that's also something that we can do as friends and sisters and siblings and seeing other people that are in these situations validating somebody not doing the thing that I probably would've done in the past, which is why don't you leave him? Why don't you cut him off? Just validating the small moves of independence and rebellion that somebody's making and being somebody who is an ally in that is a way that you can support someone. Another way you can do that is you can listen to this podcast, you can share this podcast, you can listen to Navigating Narcissism, follow that podcast, and what other resources do you have for people who now are like, oh my gosh, where do I
Dr. Ramani (01:02:47):
Start? Yeah. So one thing is I'm always going to encourage people go to my YouTube channel because there you have a vast library of anything you ever wanted to know about narcissism. We will
Mel Robbins (01:02:58):
Link all of this, everybody in the show notes, we will have time codes. If you're listening to this, the entire long cut is up on YouTube, so please, please, please, you will get a direct link to your website, to your YouTube channel to everything. So keep telling them at the podcast.
Dr. Ramani (01:03:15):
And I also for people who want to go in even deeper, because I think we could talk about narcissism till the cows come home, but there's a point at which it start feeling like naval gazing because people are saying, okay, I got this. I mean, some folks who've watched my YouTube could probably teach their own classes on narcissism now or read my books or anything like that. And so some folks want to go deeper and focus on their own healing. They're like, okay, enough here. Once again, everyone's talking about the narcissist. How's about we talk about me? And so I have a subscription program on healing from narcissistic abuse. I am very proud of this program because every month people who are in this program, they get a workshop, they get a q and a, they get three journal prompts a week. There's a community platform that's moderated, and so they're getting all this, and some months we're just add other stuff to it. Even if you join now, you have access to all these other special add-ons on unlike specially made videos just on sort of orienting people to narcissism 1 0 1 type of stuff. It's all there. And again, you can join it month to month. People don't like it. There's no long-term commitment, but I would say you'll have that link to click that link and join it if you really want to do deeper. What's the program called Dr. Round? It's called Healing. It's basically it says Healing from narcissistic abuse and the people on this platform are amazing. And what's really amazing is some of them have said they did it six, seven months, and they said, you know what? I'm good. I am in a much stronger place. And then they're like, I don't need to be on here anymore. And some of them use it as an adjunct to therapy. So they're going to therapy, but they take the journal prompts to therapy. It's a very affordable price point so people can get in and get so much content, which you'd never be able to get at this price just for even one of the workshops. So I think it's, and you get this sense of community and continu annuity. And then I have books. I have two books should I say, or should I go surviving a relationship with a narcissist and Don't Who I am staying sane in an era of entitlement, civility, and narcissism, I think.
(01:05:15):
And so I should know the title of my own book, but you can get those on anywhere at God to your local booker. We'll link to it all, link to 'em all, and I'll have a new book. I'm going to bell, come on your podcast again and talk about that. Absolutely. September, 2023, I'm very proud of this book is still, we're editing and all that, but on healing instead of just talking about the narcissist, talk about what you can do for yourself. I think that's the more important part of this conversation. So join us on our healing platform. Come listen on YouTube. Definitely listen to the podcast because it's really interesting to hear other people's stories. Oh, Dr. Ani, you're amazing. Oh, thank you, Melanie.
Mel Robbins (01:05:50):
I can't believe I learned even more
Dr. Ramani (01:05:52):
From you today. Good. That's the idea.
Mel Robbins (01:05:54):
And what I love about what I learned today is that it will help me with the healing part of this.
Dr. Ramani (01:06:00):
Yes, that's the key. You know what, listen, I am telling you now, I am amazed at how many survivors I meet, and I wish my students when I taught at the university, could have given me as good a rundown. They're giving me, they get this. So I'm like, okay, you get this now, like you said, even if I get it, that's not enough. I still feel guilty. I still feel pulled two ways. I still feel the sick inside. The healing is about being compassionate, if you will, with that sick you feel inside, but slowly giving yourself permission to little by little disconnect. You're not going to do it all at once, but month by month guiding people just step back little by little. Sometimes it's two steps forward. I mean, three steps forward, two steps back. But at least that's one step up and it's a process.
(01:06:49):
As a survivor myself, more days than not, I feel good, but there are moments I don't, and I feel like I have no right to even be talking to people about this. And I'm like, oh, maybe because I say that I do have every right to talk to people about this. And this is a journey into not only humility, but it's about seeing yourself and recognizing this is an issue that's affecting everyone in the world. This is a global issue. We are making narcissists our heroes. They get all of our attention. They suck all the oxygen out of the world. Let's face it, whether it's in celebrity politics, business, athletics, their bad behavior is the stuff that we are constantly paying attention to. Imagine paying attention to people who are well-regulated, warm, kind, and compassionate, as we often view them through a more, I don't know, weak lens. I actually think they're the strongest people out there. So all you agreeable people, come find me. I do love you, especially you agreeable introverts. That's my tribe.
Mel Robbins (01:07:53):
Oh man. Well, you're in my tribe too. Thank you. I love you. Alright, well thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening and before we go, I just want to tell you, I love you. I believe in you and your ability to create a better life. So go do it.
Guests Appearing in this Episode
Dr. Ramani Durvasula, PhD
Dr. Ramani Durvasula is the world’s leading expert on narcissism and a renowned clinical psychologist dedicated to helping individuals navigate complex relationships.
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Book: Should I Stay or Should I Go?
Should I Stay or Should I Go? uses checklists, clinical wisdom, and real stories from real people to prepare you for the real terrain of pathological narcissism. It raises the red flags to watch for and provides a realistic roadmap for difficult situations to help you reclaim yourself, find healing, and live an authentic and empowered life. Whether you stay. Or go.
Resources
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- For Closed Captions: Watch on YouTube and turn on “CC.” For instructions to turn on closed captions, click here.
- Yellow rock communication - Tina Swithen
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