Your Guide to Better Sex, Intimacy, & Love From a World-Leading Sex Therapist

(00:00:52):

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you're here. I cannot wait for our conversation today, and it's always such an honor to spend time and to be together with you. And if you're a new listener, I just want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I'm so glad you're here, and because you made the time to hit play and listen to this particular episode, here's what I know. I first of all know you value your time because you made time and found time to listen to this. 

(00:01:42):

And did you know that sex is one of the top three reasons why people get divorced or break up? But that's not going to happen to you because improving your sex life totally solvable problem. So if you're not having sex right now or if you're not having enough, or if it's not pleasurable or if you'd like to mix things up but you just don't have a clue how to talk about it or bring it up, first of all, you're not the only one. And what I love about her expert today is that she's even going to tell you this was hard for her to talk about in her life. And she's been in clinical practice as a licensed sex therapist for over 20 years, and she's been married for 17. See, here's the thing. None of us have been taught about sex. And more importantly, everything that you and I have seen in the movies or what we think it's supposed to be wrong.

 

(00:02:31):

That's why you and I hint. It's why we fake. It's why we're tolerating less than we deserve. And the solution, this is the good news. It's right in front of your face. And wouldn't it be so awesome if it weren't such a chore or embarrassing to talk about? I mean, personally, I've been married for 28 years and even I'm embarrassed to talk about it with my husband, Chris. Just imagine a world where you could be having more of it and enjoy it more. Well, that's my mission and what's available to you today. So if you're single, just pat yourself on the back because you're about to learn something I wish I knew 35 years ago. If you're in a new relationship, I know you're probably having more sex than my husband and I are, but what you're going to learn is going to make it even better because licensed sex therapist, New York Times bestselling author, Vanessa Marin is here.

 

(00:03:23):

And look, I'm going to ask the embarrassing questions. I'm even going to open up my bedroom and my marriage. Even Chris, my husband has jumped in with some questions for Vanessa. I have no idea what they are. I'm going to hear them live when you hear them. So let me tell you a little bit about Vanessa. Vanessa is a licensed psychotherapist and a sex therapist with over 20 years of clinical practice helping people have healthier, more satisfying sex lives. She's known for her work and making sex therapy more accessible. She is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, sex Talks, the Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life. And she and her husband, Xander also hosts the number one rated sexuality podcast called Pillow Talks. You're going to love her. So 

Vanessa Marin (00:04:16):

Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be here.

 

Mel Robbins (00:04:20):

Now, is it normal for people who interview you to feel kind of nervous?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:04:23):

Yes. Are you a little bit nervous right now?

 

Mel Robbins (00:04:25):

I'm definitely nervous, and I suppose it's because I'm one of these people that's a little bit squeamish about sex, which might surprise you as you're listening to me right now, you've hit play on this. You know what you're in for. This is an adult conversation, and I'm out there and I share a lot, but when it comes to sex, I'm, I don't know, maybe a little bit of a prude.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:04:49):

Well, let me say thank you so much for being willing to have these conversations. I think it's really important for us to recognize we are all a little squeamish and embarrassed. I've been doing this work for two decades and I get a little squeamish and awkward and weird sometimes. We were not born being ashamed of sex. We were all taught to be. And I think you're doing a really great service to your community by showing people, look, I can feel awkward and squeamish and weird and still choose to do it anyway.

 

Mel Robbins (00:05:18):

That's true. Both the sex and talk about it, right? Choose to do it. Anyway, I think we're going to talk a lot about the, could you speak directly to the person that's listening, whether they're in their car or they're sitting at work or they've taken you and I Vanessa on a walk and just tell them what might they experience that's different in life If they take everything that you're about to share and I'm about to confess to heart and they apply it, what's going to change in their life?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:05:50):

I think so many of us in long-term relationships, if we're really honest with ourselves, we kind of feel like we've been lied to or cheated a little bit. We've grown up with this idea of romance and intimacy and this thought of what relationships are supposed to look like. And a lot of us are in these long-term relationships thinking this is it. This disconnection, this lack of sex. This is really what relationships are all about. And so I want the listener to know that if you listen to this episode, if you put these techniques and tools into place, you can have the kind of intimacy that you've always wanted. You can have that intimacy that really leaves you feeling so close to your partner, connected to your partner, close to yourself too.

 

Mel Robbins (00:06:36):

So for the person that's listening, that's single, I would also love to have you speak directly to that person because I know that this is also going to be one of those episodes since none of us like talking about sex, that you send it to somebody like if you are single and listening to our conversation today, how might your life change if they take to heart everything that you're about to share and they apply it to their life?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:07:03):

It's an incredible opportunity when you're single to learn these skills that you can then bring into your next relationship. Most of the couples that my husband Xander and I work with, they've been in relationships 10, 20, 30, 40 years. And when you're that far into a relationship, starting to untangle some of these dynamics can feel really challenging. And so if you get to prepare yourself before you even get into your next relationship and know, okay, this is what I know about myself, this is how I'm going to communicate to my partner, this is the kind of partner that I'm looking for. You are going to be so well prepared to have an extraordinary relationship.

 

Mel Robbins (00:07:38):

What keeps you up at night as a licensed sex therapist?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:07:42):

I stay up at night knowing that there are so many couples struggling with their sex lives when the reality is that there are very simple and practical things that we can all do to experience that incredible deep intimacy with each other. I know sexual issues can feel really big and really complicated when we're in the middle of them, but there really are simple things that we can do to feel closer to each other. It's just the fact that sex is still so taboo to talk about that leaves us feeling stuck, feeling like we're broken, something's wrong with us and there are no solutions. But

 

Mel Robbins (00:08:19):

Why are so many of us feeling disconnected in our sex lives?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:08:25):

Because we're feeling disconnected in our relationships too. One of the big mistakes that people make when it comes to sex is we try to compartmentalize it. We think of sex as, oh, it's just this thing that happens in the bedroom at the end of the night with the doors closed, the lights turned off. But the reality is that the level of connection we feel or don't feel with our partner all throughout the day heavily impacts our desire to be intimate with them at the end of the night. And the sad reality is most couples in long-term relationships feel deeply from each other. We hear the classic phrases, we feel like roommates rather than romantic partners, we're like two ships passing in the night. And so if you're feeling that level of disconnection in your sex life, it's actually in a funny way, an invitation to take a look at, well, what's going on in the relationship overall?

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:13):

Well, I can relate to that. I mean, I think that when you have a person that you're in a relationship, and of course I've been married for 28 years, having the same person, be the person that you wake up next to you grocery shop with, you cook dinner with you, pay bills with you if you have kids or you have furry kids, that you're taking care of the logistics around that, that it can become very transactional. Like you're doing life together, but you're not actually doing each other. I mean, I love Chris like crazy. I'm super attracted to him. And as much as I want more sex, I'm like, do I? I'm actually very, very tired. And so I relate to what you're saying and what is your advice to me if I want more sex, but I'm not sure that I want more sex, even though I enjoy the sex tremendously when we have it, but I'm exhausted.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:10:12):

So I want to validate the exhaustion first because most of us lead lives that are incredibly full, incredibly stressful, and that exhaustion's real, and it definitely gets in the way of us having intimacy. But one of the incredible things about sex is that sex actually gives back to us

 

Mel Robbins (00:10:30):

How

 

Vanessa Marin (00:10:30):

When we have sex with our partner, when we feel truly connected with them and truly intimate with each other, sex actually creates more energy, more time, more of a sense of teamwork. When you and your partner are in a good place. And you could probably think of specific examples, think of a time when you and Chris were not in a good place. Everything feels like a slog.

 

(00:10:53):

Every little thing that you have to do during the day just stretches out so much further because you're disconnected. But when you are in a good place, when you feel like you're connecting, you're appreciating each other, you're feeling intimate with each other, you feel like an unstoppable team, nothing can get in your way. Xander and I had a really interesting experience with this a couple of months ago. We were having one of those days, it was one of those days, there were so many things on our plate, everything was spiraling out of control, taking way longer than we thought it was supposed to. And it was probably around five o'clock. And we were looking at our to-do list and looking at each other just thinking, there's no way, there is not enough time left in the day for us to do all of the things that are on this list.

 

(00:11:34):

And Xander reminds me, he said, we had said earlier this morning that we were going to have sex today. And my initial reaction was, no, there's no time. We can't even get through all these things. There's no time for sex. And we started negotiating with the schedule a little bit. He said, well, what if maybe I could do this first and maybe we push this off till tomorrow. And he stopped himself in the middle of it and he said, this is ridiculous. You are more important to me. Intimacy is more important to me than anything on this stupid list. So screw the list right now. Let's go have sex right now. I thought he was crazy. My initial reaction was absolutely not. Are you kidding me? Look at all the things that we have to do. But that sentence really stuck with me. You're more important to me. You are more important to me than anything on this list. And so I said, okay, okay. My mind is screaming, no, we should do all the to-do list stuff, but let me do this. Let's go be intimate. And so we went and had sex. And then magically after that, we killed that list. We were so in sync with each other. We were a team, we're dividing and conquering. We got through everything. It was like magic that had happened when we had that connection with each other, when we were prioritizing what was actually important, everything else fell into place.

 

Mel Robbins (00:12:57):

I actually believe you. Good. No, and I don't mean that as a weird statement, it's because I know what you're saying is true. And one of the things that happens for me a lot is that every time my husband and I have sex, I always say, that was amazing. I feel so much more connected to you. Thank God we did that. Why aren't we having more sex? Is that a common thing too, where you're just like, I'm too tired, so we're not having sex, but then we have sex and I'm like, why are we not having sex?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:13:28):

So what you're starting to talk about is actually the two sex drive types, which I'm super excited to share with you because what you're describing sounds like a classic responsive sex drive type.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:38):

So what are the two different types of sex drives?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:13:41):

So we have spontaneous and responsive. How we describe them is where we feel desire first. So there are two ways that we get turned on. Excited, ready for sex, mentally the idea of sex sounds good. Yeah, I want to have sex.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:54):

I can handle that. I am mentally ready to have sex all the time. It's when we cross the bridge to actually doing it that the drawbridge is up.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:14:02):

Interesting. Okay. So the second place is in our bodies, we have to get physically ready. Things like getting wet, getting an erection. Our bodies are just preparing. So these two types depend on where you feel desire first.

 

(00:14:15):

So if you're a spontaneous type, you're going to feel mental desire first. And it might feel like it kind of comes out of nowhere. You're just going about your day, huh? The idea of sex sounds good. Where's my partner? Let me find them. And then your physical arousal follows from that. And that's how most people think sex drive is supposed to work, always how we see it on TV and in the movies, there's just that all the characters have to do is make eye contact with each other, and then it's game on. But there's another type which most people don't even realize exist. And which research shows the vast majority of women, about 85% have responsive sex drive. And it's the exact opposite. We feel arousal and desire in our bodies first, and then the mental desire follows. So the classic way of knowing you might be responsive is if you've ever been in the middle of sex or even at the end of sex. And just like you're saying, you catch yourself thinking, huh, this is really fun. Why don't I seem to want this more often? So most people who have responsive desire will think of themselves as low or no desire because they're not thinking about sex. And if you grab a person with responsive desire on the street and just say, Hey, do you want to have sex right now? 99 times out of a hundred, it's going to be no, because I'm not thinking about it.

 

(00:15:24):

But it's not that your desire is low or it's just that it operates in a different way. You have to have some physical stimulation first before the idea of sex is going to sound good.

 

Mel Robbins (00:15:35):

I think you just solved all my problems with my husband because I think my problem is I think about it and I'll text him and be like, we got to have sex tonight. I really miss you, but there's no follow through on my part. And I think we're both responsive that he probably needs to have me start. I need him to start. We're both exhausted. Is that a common thing?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:15:58):

Yeah. Two people who have responsive desire. It can often feel like a standoff. You're kind of waiting for the other person. Well, I want you to start, well, I want you to start. And you're both not thinking that often about sex. It's not popping into your mind that often. You might have the idea of we should, it's been a while, but you're not feeling that like, Ooh, it feels super exciting to me mentally right now.

Vanessa Marin (00:16:50):

Alright. First though, I want to ask, why do you think you're going to be blamed for something? What comes up for you around that?

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:55):

Well, I have a feeling that he's going to say, I am all talk. No follow through.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:16:59):

Okay.

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:59):

Because I do want to be having more sex. I do enjoy it, but I'm just tired. I'll always be like, we got to have sex tonight. And he's like, yeah, we got to have sex tonight. And then he's asleep at eight 30 and when I crawl into bed at nine 30, he is like, okay, I'm not waking him up. I'm just going to go to bed and then we'll have sex in the morning. And then he's up at five 15 and I'm still sleeping. And so it just feels like I keep saying something, but I'm not doing what I said I wanted. And then the second thing is, I think it's what you talked about, which is even in a relationship or we've been married for 28 years, and even with a person that I love more than anybody who I trust more than anybody, I still feel squeamish and uncomfortable talking about either what I want or what he might want that I'm not delivering and kind of hearing that I'm falling short or that he's bored. And so I think we've been hinting around wanting things to change, but we actually haven't made them change.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:18:10):

I appreciate the vulnerability so much, and you're going to see in just a minute, there's some shared similarities that you and Chris have here, but what you're illustrating is one of the most common dynamics that comes up for couples. Most of us are really afraid to talk about our sex lives. Even Xander and I struggled to talk about our sex lives for years. And when we don't talk about it, our brains naturally go to this negative place. Oh, he thinks I'm doing something bad. He's going to blame me. He's going to call me out. It's all my fault. And you'll see in a second, Chris is actually thinking some of the same sorts of things.

 

Mel Robbins (00:18:46):

I don't know if that's good or bad. All I know is that my husband sent you videos asking some questions, and I have no clue what the questions

 

Vanessa Marin (00:18:56):

Are. So we need to talk about sex more openly in our relationship

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:00):

Making so that we nervous. Can you play the videos because I dunno what he asked. So now

 

Vanessa Marin (00:19:03):

I like to, okay. I have one other practical tip that I want to get back to, but let's go to the first video so you don't have to be nervous. They're very sweet videos, I'll tell you that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:10):

Oh,

 

Chris Robbins (00:19:12):

Hey Mel. Thanks for inviting me onto the podcast. My first question is around the difference between physical touch or sensation versus emotional connection and either what's more important to you or does one come before the other and what could I do to improve the physical side or to dial up anything that you might need emotionally so that the table is set?

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:57):

Oh, well, first of all, the dog is in the background, which is adorable. But I love that he cares. And I guess what I'm getting from this question is that simply talking about sex with your partner and asking questions about sex makes you feel cared for.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:20:17):

Absolutely. Yeah. And what I hear behind that question is a little bit of worry. Am I doing something that's not good? Can I be doing something that's better?

 

Mel Robbins (00:20:32):

See, I'm already getting, I'm so embarrassed. I don't know why

 

Vanessa Marin (00:20:38):

It's a vulnerable thing that you're doing.

 

Mel Robbins (00:20:40):

Well, what I would say to my husband is that once we are physical, it's fantastic. But for me there is some disconnect around when we're having sex or when we think are the times to have sex because I think we're waiting until the end of the day.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:21:03):

That's exactly what,

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:03):

And we're both exhausted. And so one thing I'm relieved about since he's kind enough to be saying there's emotional intimacy and physical intimacy, and to me the physical intimacy is on lock. I mean, I'd love to experiment a little bit just to spice things up. I think he would enjoy it. But I think we are struggling with just the basics of how do we have more sexual experiences in the middle of a crazy busy life

 

(00:21:35):

And how do we stop disappointing one another by saying we would love to do this. Just last week we probably talked about wanting to have sex two or three times. He has a fricking sinus infection. I don't want to get sick. He can barely breathe. If he's asking me what I need, I don't even know. Because I feel like when we do connect, and I think a lot of us feel this way, when it finally happens, you are happy. So what would your advice though, as a licensed sex therapist be? And what do you hear in that question when somebody's saying, do you need more emotional intimacy or physical intimacy?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:22:12):

So let's go to the tactical thing first. What I hear you describing is another classic mistake that see most couples making, which is that we leave sex to the very end of the night. We just have that idea in our heads like, oh, we're all teeth brushed, all cleaned up, crawling into bed. That's the time for sex. That is the worst time for sex. By the time you're crawling into bed, you are exhausted. You're thinking about the next day, you're thinking about the crazy day you just had. You're doing that mental math in your head of, okay, if I fall asleep in the next five minutes, then I can get this many hours of sleep. That is the worst time to get excited about sex. So I always encourage couples try to have sex as early in the evening as you can. Obviously everybody has different schedules, we have different things going on, but try to prioritize it as early as you possibly can. So if it's we're not going to watch TV until we've had sex first, maybe it's even we're going to have sex and then we're going to have dinner, or we're going to have dinner have sex, then we'll come back and clean everything up, but do it earlier so you actually have the energy to have that intimacy with

 

Mel Robbins (00:23:16):

Each other. What I'm hearing from you, which is interesting because I feel myself also having a little bit of a visceral like, oh God, is this idea of you got to plan it. You're like, yeah, no kidding, Mel, you have to plan it. I think I believe in the myth that it's just supposed to happen,

 

(00:23:34):

Which is clearly not working. And that's what happens in the beginning of a relationship when you first, it's brand new. You will literally going to the grocery stores, the hottest date on the planet, and then you're having sex in the backseat of the car, in the parking lot. Those days are over. So you're saying,

 

Vanessa Marin (00:23:51):

I want to challenge you on that though. Okay. If you really think back on it in the early days of a relationship, so I'll talk about Mia and Xander when we started having sex, and then we're planning dates with each other. We're scheduling sex

 

Mel Robbins (00:24:05):

Because you're planning dates,

 

Vanessa Marin (00:24:06):

We're planning dates. I would know, he'd ask me out, that's so Friday. Hey, you want to go hang out on Friday? I'll go to dinner, come back to my place. We're having sex. That's scheduling sex. It's not that we've never had to schedule sex before and now we're old and boring and we have to do it. We've been scheduling sex our entire relationship. We just looked at it differently.

 

Mel Robbins (00:24:26):

I've never heard that before. One other question before I get to Chris's second question is, if you have a partner who tells you I need more emotional intimacy, what does that mean?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:24:40):

That's such a great question and it's something that every person has to think about for themselves. A lot of us will throw these phrases out to our partner. I want more emotional intimacy. But what does that mean? The things that could feel emotionally intimate to you, to me could feel like I don't like that. That doesn't really work for me. So we all have to take that time to think about what is it, what are the specific things? And I'm really practical. So I like to think about what are the things that my partner could do on a daily basis? Obviously if my partner wants to sweep me off on a two week romantic vacation, yes I'm going to feel very connected, but what could he do on a Tuesday at 8:30 PM to help me feel 10% closer to him? So what are those little things? And that's what I hear from Chris too, is wondering, do you want more emotional intimacy from me? Do you feel close enough to me? And there's also a question in there of what comes first for you. People tend to be divided into roughly two camps. There's some people who want emotional intimacy before they feel open to physical intimacy. And there are some people who want physical intimacy as a way to help open up more emotional intimacy.

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:45):

I think you just changed my marriage because when you said when you were first dating, what is a date? It's a way to schedule sex that was like, we're scheduling those dates and it's not even about the dates. It's about creating moments where we have the time and space for intimacy to happen and to plan for it. Like you said earlier in the evening, I'm like, I need to be doing it before noon. I mean, if it's going to happen, scheduling it late morning is probably the sweet spot.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:26:18):

And the interesting thing too, so think back to those early stages of dating. Chris. If he called you and said, Hey, do you want to go on a date with me on Saturday? You're not thinking, oh, this guy, we have to schedule it. Wow, the romance must really be dead if we're having a no, you're excited. It's true. Wow, he wants to spend time with me. He's willing to carve time out of his busy life to make time to be with me. We looked at it in such a positive way and people get so freaked out by the scheduling sex thing. I actually say, leave the scheduling sex, that phrase behind because it freaks people out too much.

 

Mel Robbins (00:26:53):

What do we say instead?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:26:53):

Let's just think about it as planning for sex. Or I like to say intentional intimacy or even just call it a date night if you want. Like those feelings of date night. But yeah, we can think of it as a positive thing. My partner cares about me. They want to spend time with me. They've got a million things going on, but they're telling me you are important. I want to make sure you and I have that time together.

 

Mel Robbins (00:27:13):

Well, more importantly, this is how it all started and this is why you were having sex. So why on earth would I be a dummy and not do the same thing I did when we first started dating? Alright, let's look at the next one.

 

Chris Robbins (00:27:26):

So my second question is about just what I can do better or differently at the end of the day to help you turn off your working mind. I know sometimes it's dinner or hanging out and watching something, but your mind often doesn't turn off all the way into the bedroom and into the bed with or without the phone. And so is there anything that I can do to help alleviate some of that stress or whatever might be running through your mind in order to shift the mood?

 

Mel Robbins (00:28:12):

Oh, he's so cute. Oh my God, I love this question because I know exactly what could be done and it's going to sound weird, but one of the things that I really miss is that we don't often cook dinner together anymore because we're empty nesters

 

(00:28:34):

And there's only two of us and we both work from home. And so it is so easy to sit at your desk on your laptop and close the laptop at six 30 after the last video call, and then send a few emails and then stroll into the kitchen and you're like, what? Do we have cereal again? We're going to put a pizza in the oven again. There is some buffering between work and the reestablishing of rituals that for us, we're very much driven by the fact that kids were home and they were hungry and we had a pattern of sitting down and cooking and then eating as a family that has just evaporated without the kids being there. And so for me, I know that I could use a lot of help with, if I walked into the kitchen and Chris was already cooking, I wouldn't be on my phone. But since we haven't planned anything, work literally takes over the space and we're both guilty of it. And so I could see how even, and I mean this is just opening up so many things we could do. We could start doing the things we used to do when the kids were home. We could meet on Sunday nights and go, these are the nights we're going to cook, and who's going to take responsibility for being the lead on that night so that we both come down to something.

 

(00:30:01):

I think it's an excellent question because it goes back to what you're talking about, which is intentional intimacy, and even the act of deciding that we're cooking dinner tonight together, that's intentional.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:30:13):

Yeah, well you're saying it goes back to what I was saying at the very beginning of this interview. The things that we need to fix intimacy in our relationship are so simple, and a lot of us know what they are already. We're just not doing them. That you feel really connected to him when you do those things. And it's not that difficult to do it, it's just getting ourselves to do them again.

 

Mel Robbins (00:30:36):

Well, it's like everything I talk about on this podcast, which is, we all know this, but you have to be reminded. We need those reminders because otherwise, technology and work and all these things that you're not going to be thinking about at the end of your life are going to steal the time that you have now with the people that you care

 

Vanessa Marin (00:30:50):

About. And I think that the cooking is such a great example too, because it can create what I like to call a transition ritual.

 

(00:30:56):

So many of us try to go from the chaos of the day straight into, okay, now I'm home, and we're supposed to be super sexy and intimate with each other. That is too rough of a transition to make. We need a little bit of a ritual to help us land, ground ourselves and know, okay, I'm here. I'm in a different state. I'm doing a different thing now. So is there some little activity? And again, all about being practical. What is something that you could do super simply in just a couple of minutes to help the two of you reconnect? Hey, we're here with each other. It's our time now.

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:27):

Alright, let's take the final question from Mr. Christopher Robbins. The fact that he's even asking makes me want to have sex with him. Okay, honey, here we go. Here goes the final question.

 

Chris Robbins (00:31:38):

Is there anything that you haven't said or that you're afraid to tell me? Thanks for including me.

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:45):

Ooh, anything I haven't told him? Yes, but I have told him this, but maybe you can give us advice and I can ask this on behalf of the person who's listening who feels the same way.

 

(00:32:06):

I feel like work is a huge part of my life and I have to be out in the world at work. Go, go, go, go, go, go. I am the primary breadwinner. I am aggressive and confident and energetic, and I am responsible for a large number of people on this team. And I put a ton of energy into caring for the people that I work with, caring for the people that listen to the show, caring for our children, that I don't want to be the point person on our sex life. I really want to feel desired and to feel like this is one area of my life where I don't have to be the one who's in charge. And I am sure that is a very common thing that people say that I, and not in a fairytale way that I'm expecting to be romanced, but I don't want to be the one with the traditional masculine energy that is seeking out the thing that I want. It's not to say I'm not a equal partner, but that I don't want it to be on me to have to initiate this too.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:33:26):

Interesting. So I can totally relate to what you're saying. And I think a lot of people feel that exact same way. I just want to be taken care of. I don't want to have to think about it and to make that effort.

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:38):

Well, everything in my life, and I think as you're listening to me right now, you may feel this too. You're responsible for caring for your parents, you're responsible for taking care of the kids. You feel tremendous pressure to get your bills paid. You're the one that is doing the dishes. And that's not to say that your partner or the person that you're dating isn't doing anything. It's that there is, to put it in very outdated terms, there's very masculine energy around being the task master and the money maker and the caretaker. And there's more unmasculine or feminine softer energy that I would love to access in moments of intimacy.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:34:23):

Tell me more about that. What would that look like for you to be able to be more in your feminine when it comes to sex

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:29):

That Chris is initiating?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:34:32):

Is it just the initiating? Is

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:34):

It something else? Yeah, I think so. I think it's literally, I feel like I'm the one that's always like, we should have sex today. We haven't had sex for a while. I am kind of the one doing that. And I think it would help a lot for me if I felt like this was an area of my life that I had somebody more spontaneous rather than responsive to put it in your

 

Vanessa Marin (00:34:56):

Language. So what do you think, if you just have to guess, what do you think might hold Chris back from initiating?

 

Mel Robbins (00:35:05):

I think Chris has a very full life and he also has a job as a founder of a men's retreat where he's taking care of lots of people. He's a death doula. I mean, just this weekend he was leading a workshop on holotropic breath work like he is Mr. A phenomenal human being who is also a caretaker. And so I would imagine that he feels the exact same way that I feel, which is I'm doing my best to provide, I'm doing my best to take care of everybody that I'm taking care of. I'm doing my best to hold the household together and to make sure the dogs are fed. Could you just help me and take care of my needs? And so I think we're in this,

 

Vanessa Marin (00:35:55):

You're both having the same experience wanting the other person to take the lead.

 

Mel Robbins (00:35:59):

Yes. And I feel like most people probably feel this way and we don't even stop to think that our partners also don't feel like their needs are getting met. Is this very common?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:36:11):

It's very common. And of course, let's be honest, when our partner takes the lead, when they take that ownership, it feels good. It feels easier because initiating is so vulnerable. It takes so much vulnerable and it doesn't matter how long you've been. I agree

 

Mel Robbins (00:36:27):

With that, especially if you've been with somebody for a long time. I personally don't feel vulnerable about it. I feel tired.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:36:33):

Interesting.

 

Mel Robbins (00:36:34):

Okay. Tired is the biggest thing for me of just working up the mental space. I got to stop thinking about what I'm thinking about. And the other thing for me, and I know this is something that you talk about, is I think there's a problem in that any intimacy feels like, okay, now we got to have intercourse. Not that intercourse is a bad thing, but you're like, okay, I don't even want to touch the guy because if he gets an erection because I'm stroking his thighs, we're watching Netflix, now I got to do something.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:37:03):

Exactly. Okay. So for a lot of people, it's great that it doesn't feel vulnerable for you. For a lot of people, it does feel really vulnerable. And so I feel really strongly that both partners in a relationship should share that vulnerability of initiating. We all want to feel wanted. We all want to feel like my partner's thinking of me. They want to connect with me. So if you have two people, it sounds like the two of you might be who are responsive. I think having that intentional intimacy and sitting together and thinking, okay, let's look at our schedule for the next week. What days look best, what looks open? What is the time of day that's going to work best for us? It sounds like for you guys earlier in the day is going to be way better than at the end of the day.

 

(00:37:44):

So if you guys can pick out those moments to be with each other, then it feels like you're both contributing. It's not one person taking the lead, one person holding everything on their shoulders. I mean, if you think about other aspects of your life, let's imagine parenting. I know your kids are grown, but maybe let's think about when they were younger. Imagine Chris coming up to you and saying, okay, Mel, I want you to take the lead with the parenting. So you're just going to be the parent. You're going to initiate whatever parenting stuff needs to be done. If you want my help, you can ask me. Maybe I'll say yes, maybe no, but you're the parenting person. That would be crazy. But so many of us do that with sex. We want our partner just to do everything for us.

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:25):

Well, I feel really called out right now because I remember there being a conversation with Chris when I started having to travel work a lot, and I'm like, you have to be the first call parent. I can't be the person on the call sheet at school because I'm always traveling for work.

 

(00:38:45):

We've got to reverse roles. And now I'm realizing I'm doing the same thing with the poor man around sex. You got to be the first call person. I think there's probably a deeper reason if you're the person who's squeamish or you're like me and you feel like I just want somebody to take care of this for me or you're uncomfortable talking about it. 

Vanessa Marin (00:39:25):

It absolutely does. It's really important for us to recognize that our sex life is our responsibility. And of course, who doesn't want this amazing magical partner who knows everything to do and just goes ahead and does it? But that's sadly not real life. But there really is a joy in us taking that ownership and deciding, you know what? I want to figure this out for myself. I want to understand why do I feel so squeamish? Why do I feel so uncomfortable? Why do I feel so awkward? I've gone through plenty of those experiences myself. I actually felt deeply uncomfortable initiating for a really long time. And there are even times to this day where I get a little awkward and I try to talk myself out of it like, no, I shouldn't. He's doing something right now. I won't bother him. So I get it.

 

(00:40:08):

It is really uncomfortable, but there's so much knowledge for us to uncover about ourselves of where does that come from within me? And I think especially as women, we grow up being taught that our job is to put the brakes on sex. We're supposed to say no. We're supposed to slow things down. We're not supposed to say yes too often, but also not. There are all these rules that get put on us as women. And I find myself even to this day, even after all this work that I've done, there'll be times that Xandr will initiate and I get that knee jerk. I'm not supposed to. Oh, that's fat. I'm not supposed to. And so just being able to recognize that's not me. That's some crap that I was taught decades of crappy socialization growing up in a really sex negative society. So I can acknowledge that that lies within me, but I can also acknowledge that is not me. But what I would also encourage you guys to think about are what are those specific ways that each of you could feel more cared for

 

(00:41:09):

More catered to during sex and come up with specific things? Is it I love it when he takes time to massage my back and do a real massage. Not one of those 20 seconds, my finger hands are heading down. So kind of do you mean? Yeah, I want him to do a real massage. I love it when he brushes my hair. I love it when he draws me a bath and lets me have 10 minutes of alone time. And that's my transition ritual. And then I come into spending time together and I would ask him the same question, what are the specific ways that he could feel taken care of by you? Because that's some real intimacy there too. If we can let our partner take care of us and

 

Mel Robbins (00:41:47):

Tell him, I love this.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:41:48):

Yeah, these are the things that you could do that would help me feel so cherished and taken care of, and I could just relax into receiving. And especially for us women, we struggle so much with receiving. So to be able to ask your partner, here's what I need to help me receive.

Vanessa Marin (00:42:11):

Talk about it. So most of us, when we're in these difficult stages of a relationship, we don't want to acknowledge what's going on. I know when Xander and I have had our driest fall moments, it's like, it's embarrassing. You don't want to acknowledge the elephant in the bedroom. And so you bury your head in the sand. You don't want to talk about it, but what happens is it leaves your partner wondering how you really feel about that. I remember there was a time early in our relationship where I caught myself realizing I don't remember the last time we had sex. And then my next thought was, does Xander notice? Does he realize it's been a long time or does he not care? And it was all this fear and uncertainty came up for me. Does he not care? And that's what happens when we're not talking about it. Your partner wonders, do they not care about me anymore and they're not attracted to me anymore. So even just something as simple as acknowledging, because let's be honest, nobody gets into a dry spill on purpose because life happens,

 

Mel Robbins (00:43:06):

Stuff happens. What is a dry spell? As a licensed sex therapist, what is the normal amount of time that you should go without having sex? Or I want to know when do you know you're in the danger zone versus how much sex are people actually having when they're in a relationship?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:43:23):

There's no specific definition of what counts as a dry spell. Some therapists will use one year.

 

Mel Robbins (00:43:29):

One year.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:43:31):

They might call that a sexless relationship or a sexless marriage. But most people report if it's been like three to six months, to me, that feels like a dry spell. We've pulled our audience about that. So even just acknowledging it and saying, Hey, I know life has been so full lately. We've had all the kids stuff work has been crazy, but I want you to know I'm thinking about you and I miss you, and I really want us to take a look at the calendar and figure out what's some time that we can carve out for just us that helps your partner recognize like you still care. You still want to connect.

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:02):

You say that you and your husband make out every night.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:44:05):

Every night.

 

(00:44:06):

Why? Well, we started doing this a couple of years ago because we fell into the exact same trap that I just told you most couples fall into. I realized one day, I don't remember the last time that we made out, and we used to make out all the time at the beginning of our relationship. And it was just one of those incredibly sweet, pure brings you back to being a teenager, making out in the car. And so I realized I really miss that we're not making out with each other. So I decided, you know what? Let's make a ritual out of it. Let's make a fun little ritual where I want us to make out every single night. And so for the first, I think about a month, we made a little rule that I said, the point of this is not that we're trying to get each other turned on and have sex. So we're actually going to say no sex after the makeup.

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:51):

So walk me through this because you said the bedroom and I immediately imagine the kitchen with Chris. But

 

Vanessa Marin (00:44:57):

Yeah,

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:57):

You could do it in the kitchen. Walk me through how you and your husband started this ritual and step-by-step what you do.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:45:04):

So we do do it in the bedroom, but you could absolutely do it in another place. And if you're worried about it feeling like it needs to lead to more, I actually would recommend starting it in a different place. But we made that rule that for that first month, no sex afterwards, we have to leave even if we want to. And the rule was all that has to happen is there has to be a little tongue contact. So it could be 10 seconds, it could be a couple minutes. We just do a minute every night. And it's just this really sweet little moment of connection for us where we get to enjoy kissing just for the sake of kissing. It is a really great way to bring that romance bag.

 

Mel Robbins (00:45:39):

What is the bristle response?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:45:41):

That is the name of a term that I coined to describe. When your partner reaches out to touch you and you feel your whole body recoil, you feel yourself tense up. You just don't want to be touched. And what that's often the result of is actually bad initiation. So like I said, a lot of us have started to make that connection, that touch leads to sex. And because so many people do feel vulnerable initiating, most people won't come out and directly use their words. So they will do that, the hug that lingers a little bit longer than it should. The hand on the thigh that's lingering, and we have such interesting radar, I can tell the split second that Xander starts to initiate. I'm like, I know what you're doing. And so a lot of us have then become on guard to our partner's touch because we're so worried like, oh, I don't want him to touch me.

 

(00:46:29):

And then it leads to more, I don't want to touch him, and then he'll get turned on and he thinks I want it to lead to more. So we start cutting ourselves off from that touch and our whole body will react to it. And it feels terrible in the moment. This is the person that you love the most in this world. And even if they are just trying to give you a casual little pat on the back, you feel yourself like, get away from me. So actually the solution for getting rid of the bristle reaction is again, more non-sexual physical touch. We have to break that connection. That touch is supposed to lead to sex.

 

Mel Robbins (00:47:00):

If you're listening to this and you realize you bristle and it might be innocuous because you literally are just like, it's true. I have determined in my mind that every time somebody touches me, they want more. And for whatever reason, I don't want more or I don't have time to, or I'm mad at you, so I don't want to have sex with you. As a licensed sex therapist, what would you counsel someone to exactly, to their partner to shift this dynamic and call it out?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:47:35):

So use this podcast to open up a conversation. Say, I heard this interview. I'd never heard of this term before, but I realize that's what I'm doing and I don't want to be doing it. And I'm sure that it doesn't feel good for you either. And so what I'm realizing or the advice that she gave on the episode is that I want us to have more touch in our relationship. I want you to be able to reach out and give me a hug or soak me on the back whenever you feel like it without me having that reaction. So what I want us to do for now is to practice having more of that touch, but just enjoying the touch. So if you want to initiate sex with me, tell me with your words. Let's be just for a brief period of time. Let's practice being more direct about it so that I can relax when you're touching me and know that you're just touching me because you want a little connection in that moment, not because you're wanting to push it for more.

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:25):

That makes so much sense. And I can see in periods of my life where I have bristled with

 

Vanessa Marin (00:48:31):

Chris

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:32):

And it sends a very chilling message to the person that you care about. And I also love that if you're uncomfortable talking about this, share this episode with your partner and say, I want you to pay close attention to the bristle part because I've been guilty of doing that. Let's talk about it and then that way you can do it in an email or a text.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:48:57):

You let

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:58):

Vanessa, the licensed sex therapist and Mel Robbins do the talking. Exactly. And you've now set the table. What's your number one piece of advice that you should follow on your next date night?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:49:10):

Have sex before you go out on the date

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:14):

Night. Wait, what? Have sex before the date?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:49:16):

Most people get this wrong, get the order wrong. We have this idea of we go out on a date and then we come home and have sex, but let's be real. When you're having date night, you're having a big meal, maybe you're having a couple of drinks, you're in your cute outfit that maybe is a little tight and uncomfortable. When I get home from a date night, I want to get my bra off. I want to take all my clothes off. I want to get into my pajamas, and I want to get on the couch and watch tv. I do not want to go have sex. I'm too full. I'm bloated. I'm gassy. All of the things. So if we have sex before date night, then you're more excited. You have more energy, and then it gets to feel like this sexy little secret that you have between the two of you. When you're actually out on the date night,

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:57):

You're a genius. I am going to rock my husband's world. He's not even going to see what's coming for crying out loud because I've done this all

 

Vanessa Marin (00:50:04):

Wrong. It's so much fun. It's a totally different kind of experience when you do it first.

 

Mel Robbins (00:50:08):

Wow. Can you give me exactly what to say if your partner's initiating into intimacy and you're not in the mood?

 

Vanessa Marin (00:50:19):

I have a really different way of looking at this actually. I want people to expect that you are not going to be in the mood when your initiates, you're two different people. You are thinking about sex. We're not thinking about sex in two totally different ways. Two totally different times. When Xander initiates with me, I'll catch myself thinking, wait, wait, wait. You want to have sex? I wasn't even thinking about sex. It feels like I'm behind. I've lost already. And so I had that knee jerk reaction to just say no. And so when I finally recognized, I don't know, why would I be in the mood in that exact moment, that would be too weird. Then that really brought the pressure down for me, and I realized, okay, now rather than putting myself, putting this pressure on myself to feel like I should be in the mood, now I get to decide is this something that I'm open to doing? And we actually even changed the way that we initiate. Rather than saying, do you want to have sex? Xander will ask me, are you open to being intimate?

 

Mel Robbins (00:51:17):

I love that.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:51:19):

Or are you open to me trying to turn you on? And just that one word changing it to open. That reminds me in the moment,

 

Mel Robbins (00:51:26):

I'll tell you what, my legs are open now. Well, now what I love about that is I just realized just even in the, we should have sex tonight, I'm focusing on the orgasm. Are you open to being intimate later today

 

Vanessa Marin (00:51:44):

Or even are you open to connecting later today? That could be a nice way too. But yeah, just that one word, it totally changes the vibe and it helps you recognize, no, this is just about do I want to create that space with my partner? Do I want to show up in this space with my partner? It really changes the energy.

 

Mel Robbins (00:51:59):

I think you've changed my life with two things by sharing that there are two sex drives, spontaneous and responsive, and I'm stealing your husband's line. And I hope as you're listening and spending time together with us, as you're taking your walk or you're sitting at work or you're driving in your car, that you're realizing that that framing of, are you open to doing something fun and intimate Saturday morning? And I love the third thing that you said that I'm just like, wow. You're right. We had sex all the time when we first met because we were constantly planning dates together, so we were planning sex, duh. And now of course I'm thinking it's some sort of stupid thing to do when actually that's how it all began.

 

Vanessa Marin (00:52:51):

Exactly.