Episode: 244
Harvard Psychologist Shares 6 Words That Will Change Your Family
with Dr. Stuart Ablon, PhD
Get a completely new approach to dealing with difficult people, challenging kids, and family members.
Dr. Ablon, award-winning psychologist and professor at Harvard Medical School, debunks the most common parenting myths and he offers a simple 3 step approach for transforming even the most frustrating relationship dynamics.
This candid and relatable conversation isn’t just about solving conflicts; it’s about creating a deeper understanding of others and fostering lasting change.
Listen on:
You can’t force someone to change, but you can create the conditions that help them want to.
Dr. Stuart Ablon
Featured Clips
Transcript
Mel Robbins (00:00:00):
It sounds like what we're gonna learn from you today is an entirely different way to look at
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:00:05):
Yes
Mel Robbins (00:00:06):
And approach. Yes. A situation where someone's pissing you off
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:00:09):
You got it. What we've learned over the years is there's only really one reliable predictor of helping somebody to change their behavior. What is it people do well if they can. It's true. Everybody wants to do well. There's just things getting in the way. Sometimes if you're trying to motivate somebody when motivation isn't the issue, not only is it not gonna be effective, but it may, might make matters much worse. So when you shift your focus and you say people do well, if they can, what you're saying is, if that person could do well, they would do well. And if they're not, something else is getting in their way. And I personally don't buy that. It's just a lack of motivation.
Mel Robbins (00:00:46):
This is the simplest explanation and the most empowering and encouraging explanation I have ever heard. Why does this get you so emotional?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:00:55):
Kids being misunderstood and mistreated, and it doesn't have to be that way.
Mel Robbins (00:01:03):
Hey, it's your friend, Mel. I am so fired up that you pressed play and that you chose to listen or watch this episode today. This is going to be extraordinary, and it's always an honor to be able to spend time with you and to be together. But today in particular, I'm so excited that we get to spend time with the extraordinary Dr. Stewart Alon. I'm gonna tell you about him in just a second, but I wanna also take a moment and welcome you if you're a brand new listener. And I suspect there's gonna be a lot of brand new listeners around the world that come in through this particular episode, because I know you're gonna share this. That's how incredible what you're about to learn is going to be. And so welcome, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family. You have picked a winner to jump into the Mel Robbins podcast.
(00:01:47):
And you know what it tells me? It tells me that you're the type of person who values your time, and that you're also interested in learning about ways that you can improve your life and your relationships. And today, you're gonna leave a change person. I know I am. I have been following the work of the extraordinary Dr. Stewart Ablon for years. And I am so thrilled that we finally have him here today so that you and I can learn from him. We can grow, we can become better people, and we can use his research backed approach to help us deal with the challenging people in our life. Now, Dr. Stewart Alon is an award-winning psychologist. He's over 30 years of experience, and he is an expert on challenging behavior. He's also the founder and director of Think Kids, which is a program in the Department of Psychiatry at Mass General Hospital.
(00:02:38):
He's a professor at Harvard Medical School and he started all of his work in research with children, but is found that everything that he's learned about dealing with somebody who's exhibiting challenging behavior, you know, they're frustrating you or you're deeply worried about them, that everything that you're about to learn applies to any relationship. It applies to adults, it applies to coworkers, it applies to your marriage. You're gonna love this. And I love the title of his new bestselling book, changeable The Surprising Science Behind Helping Anyone Change. And that's what the conversation is all about today. How you can use science to help anyone in your life, no matter how challenging or scary the situation might be. Yes, you can help them change. Dr. Alon, it is such an honor to meet you. Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:03:27):
It is a absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Mel Robbins (00:03:30):
Where I wanna start is, could you just tell the person listening what they could experience in their life that would be different if they really take to heart everything that you're about to share with us and teach us today?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:03:42):
Well, I think in essence, people could find that conflict in their life could decrease substantially. People could find that they're able to repair relationships with people they care about love, work with raise, and people could build skills, uh, skills in areas like flexibility and frustration, tolerance and problem solving and empathy. So those are some of the things
Mel Robbins (00:04:11):
I'm in Um, this may seem like a hard question, but in the 30 years of clinical psychology experience and being the founder of the Think Kids Program at Mass General Hospital, what are some of the biggest takeaways that you have from your career? Truly working with parents and kids specifically?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:04:33):
I would say a couple of them. One is that still today, despite all the things that we've learned, which we'll talk about, I'm sure challenging behavior or concerning behavior is still tragically misunderstood and mistreated. And if we can just shift our thinking to better understand what causes it, there's so much opportunity to be helpful in a variety of different ways. So I think that's one of the things.
Mel Robbins (00:04:59):
And when you say challenging behavior
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:05:01):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:05:02):
What do you put in that bucket?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:05:03):
Uh, you know, it depends on, uh, the age of the person you're talking about. Okay. And the setting. But we're talking about everything from tantrums to, uh, with younger children to the kind of concerning behavior with teens that, uh, you know, keeps adults up at night to the challenges that people have with their spouse's behavior, their in-laws behavior, their colleagues'
Mel Robbins (00:05:24):
Behavior. And what would you tell the person who's listening right now who's either overwhelmed or burnt out, or just tired of dealing with a person or a particular issue in their life and they're just like, is this ever gonna end? Is this ever gonna get better?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:05:39):
Yeah. Well, uh, the good news is we've seen it get better in the toughest of places. And, uh, you know, this is sort of a, a battle tested approach that started with the most challenging behavior, again, in the most, the toughest of settings. And we're talking about, uh, with kids with severe trauma histories in residential treatment facilities. We're talking about correctional facilities and things like that before we ever started using it in homes in other places. Uh, so, you know, it, it's proven, but that's not to really diminish the fact that wherever you're experiencing concerning behavior from folks, you know, it's incredibly frustrating. Like, it, it's really hard to deal with and it pisses us off and, you know, so, uh, it's really hard to sort of keep our calm and be able to respond in ways that are effective. But I think we've got some ways to sort of reframe understanding the challenging behavior that can position people in a totally different place.
Mel Robbins (00:06:36):
Well, that's cool. So it sounds like what we're gonna learn from you today is an entirely different way to look at
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:06:43):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:06:43):
And approach. Yes. A situation where someone's pissing you off.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:06:47):
You got it. And, and you know, your question before of sort of, uh, what have I learned over 30 years? Yeah. The other thing I've learned is that, and this is probably one of the most, I think, important findings in social science research about helping people. Yeah. And we're talking about any kind of person
Mel Robbins (00:07:02):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:07:02):
Who, you know, kid, adult, if, if you're trying to help somebody with anything related to their behavior, what we've learned over the years is there's only really one reliable predictor of helping somebody to change their behavior. And the good news is, it's also the most powerful one.
Mel Robbins (00:07:19):
What is it?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:07:20):
It, it's the degree of helping relationship between helper and helping the degree of helping relationship. And when I say helping relationship, what I mean by that is a collaboration born of empathy, of understanding, of non-judgmental acceptance. So it's sort of working together on, on hard things. Mm-hmm. But coming from that non-judgmental perspective. And that's what we find, whether it's in therapy or in schools or all kinds of places, that's the biggest predictor of helping somebody to change their behavior.
Mel Robbins (00:07:55):
Well, what I immediately think about, and I'm sure we're gonna unpack this in great details, I think about situations in my life, whether it's dealing with our son Oakley, when he was in the fourth grade and we were just figuring out that he had dyslexia and a DHD and he was super lonely and felt like an outsider, and we were trying to help, but everything was a standoff and a fight.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:08:17):
Mm-hmm
Mel Robbins (00:08:17):
Or when another situation, my husband, it was going through a really bad bout of depression. And I wanted to help, but I just couldn't find a way in.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:08:28):
Yep.
Mel Robbins (00:08:29):
And I can think about challenging people in my extended family where I'm like, I'd like to help you be a better person 'cause you piss me off and annoy me.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:08:38):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:08:38):
Where it almost feels like a deadlock in terms of the dynamic.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:08:42):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:08:43):
And it's as if they don't want help and you don't know what to do. And so are you saying it's possible for us to change our approach and that changes what happens?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:08:52):
Absolutely. And also, you, you know what, um, I, I've got a sort of a philosophy that all of our work flows from Okay. And it's a pretty simple one. When we apply it to kids, it goes like this. Kids do well if they can. Oh, not kids do well if they want to, but kids do well if they can. And what that means is if a kid could do well, they would do well. And the reality is, you know, in all the years I've done this, I've never met a kid who prefers doing poorly to doing well. And now substitute that word kid with adult. Okay. With spouse,
Mel Robbins (00:09:27):
Yep.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:09:27):
With partner, with coworker, yeah. With mother-in-law, you name
Mel Robbins (00:09:30):
It. Yep.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:09:32):
People do well if they can.
Mel Robbins (00:09:33):
It's true.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:09:34):
Everybody wants to do well and wants to have healthy, happy relationships with others. There's just things getting in the way sometimes. And you know, when you're saying like, all, you know, all these people that might piss you off, but how do I get them to change their behavior? I hate to say it, but they may be saying the same about you. 'cause they're surely saying the same about me at times as well. And so it's really about how do we come to some mutual understanding and how do we collaborate with one another? And what we found is we've sort of developed a bit of a formula for how to do that. And we will see that not only does it sort of have proven results, but it maps onto how our brains work, how our brains process information. And you know, to boil it down a little bit, when somebody's pissing you off with their behavior, you wanna sort of tell them what to do. And the reality is they're never going to listen to you unless you start by listening to them. And we'll talk about exactly what a formula of that looks like.
Mel Robbins (00:10:35):
I love this. And what I, what I really wanna make sure that I highlight as you're listening is that sentence, kids do well if they can, and adults do well if they can. And I am so, I guess hopeful and I feel better knowing that we're starting from a position based on 30 years of research where you've seen over and over and over again, everybody wants to do better.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:02):
You got it.
Mel Robbins (00:11:03):
And if you provide the right conditions, they can get better.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:07):
Yes. And here, here's why though. Okay.
Mel Robbins (00:11:09):
Okay. Tell me why.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:10):
Well, 'cause if, if you believe kids do well, if they can
Mel Robbins (00:11:13):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:14):
Or, uh, uh, you know, people do well if they can.
Mel Robbins (00:11:16):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:17):
What you're doing is you're embracing a mindset shift, because that's not the most common way of thinking about people in their behavior, especially when they're behaving in ways that piss you off.
Mel Robbins (00:11:26):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:26):
Or are very concerning.
Mel Robbins (00:11:28):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:28):
The more common way of thinking about it is kids do well if they want to.
Mel Robbins (00:11:32):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:32):
And if you believe kids do well, if they want to, right. And a kid's not doing well, you're gonna assume the reason they're not doing well is because they don't want to.
Mel Robbins (00:11:40):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:40):
So then what are you gonna do about it? You're gonna try to
Mel Robbins (00:11:42):
Pressure them,
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:43):
Make them want to
Mel Robbins (00:11:44):
Correct.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:11:45):
And we start this very early on with kids with rewards and consequences and things like that. But in essence, as long as we sort of have more power over somebody, we never quit trying to do that. Motivating people to behave better, which is all fine and well Yep. If what is standing in somebody's way is a lack of motivation,
Mel Robbins (00:12:04):
Well then, but that's not what's normally standing in someone's way, is it? Correct. I think that's where this going.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:12:08):
Correct. And if you're trying to motivate somebody when motivation isn't the issue, not only is it not gonna be effective, but it may, might make matters much worse. And we can talk about what I mean by that. So when you shift your focus and you say, kids do well, if they can, people do well, if they can, what you're saying is, if that person could do well, they would do well. And if they're not, something else is getting in their way. And I personally don't buy that. It's just a lack of motivation. And now here's where the research comes in, because we have about 50 years of research in the neurosciences. Okay. That has shown beyond the shadow of a doubt that people who struggle to manage their behavior, they actually don't lack the will to behave well. What they lack are the skills to behave well. Skills in areas like problem solving, flexibility, frustration, tolerance. And I can give you fancier names for those things. Please, don, clinical names don't.
Mel Robbins (00:13:04):
Please don't, don't. Because I, I, 'cause this is un like my, my, if you're watching this podcast on YouTube, you're seeing my mouth slowly open, wider and wider as my jaw's hitting the ground, because this is the simplest explanation and the most empowering and encouraging explanation I have ever heard for how to change the way you look at other people in your life. Whether like me, you're a boss and you're trying to motivate, you know, your team and or you're a parent like we both are, and you're trying to motivate your kids, or you're dating somebody and you're like, boy, I wish you'd take better care of yourself. And you're trying to motivate them and you jump so quickly to the judgment and the frustration or the, you know, and I'm focusing on frustration and people's behavior that pisses you off because it feels accessible and lighter.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:14:04):
Mm-hmm
Mel Robbins (00:14:05):
Because it can quickly go to the serious stuff where somebody's really struggling and you feel like super hopeless. Like that becomes very like, scary to think about, but it's gonna be the exact same model.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:14:18):
You got it.
Mel Robbins (00:14:19):
Because we're starting in the exact same place with either kids or adults, which is kids do well if they can. And if you start there instead of judging a lack of willpower or discipline or motivation, you go, okay, well what are the conditions for doing well?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:14:34):
And it sets you up to sort of collaborate to help to be a helper. Because when you sort of define this as a lack of motivation
Mel Robbins (00:14:41):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:14:42):
Then what it sets you up to do is to try to sort of use power or control to try to motivate somebody.
Mel Robbins (00:14:50):
What have you been in the car rides with me and my kids, or at the kitchen, Dr. Ablon, come on now.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:14:55):
And, and, and I wanna point out something, 'cause you said something really important a moment ago. You know, there's a difference between just being aggravated by somebody's behavior
Mel Robbins (00:15:03):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:15:04):
And being aggravated, but also really concerned and hopeless and worried.
Mel Robbins (00:15:10):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:15:11):
And as a parent, there is no worse feeling.
Mel Robbins (00:15:15):
Now I see you brought something.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:15:17):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:15:17):
What, what is that letter that you have there?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:15:20):
Well, so this is a girl I worked with in the Boston Public Schools who, um, was having a really hard time both at home and at school Okay. Managing her behavior. And she both was a sort of, what I call an exploder and an
Mel Robbins (00:15:32):
Imploder. Which, what, what does that mean?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:15:34):
So exploder means like, she would scream, she, uh, turned over her desk. Uh, she would, you know, throw things, uh, she'd hit other people. An imploder means she would quietly put her head down and cry. She would sneak out of the room and ask to go to the bathroom and not come back. She would shut down.
Mel Robbins (00:15:53):
Mm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:15:53):
Um, and to me, by the way, all these are, these are different flavors of saying I'm having a hard time handling something with the skills I have.
Mel Robbins (00:16:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:16:03):
Why would a kid choose to do any of those things if they could handle the situation better? You know, kids do well if they can.
Mel Robbins (00:16:09):
So why does this get you so emotional?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:16:12):
Because just kids being misunderstood and mistreated. And it doesn't have to be that way. We know better, you know, we know better.
Mel Robbins (00:16:20):
We have to do better.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:16:21):
We have to do better. And, and I don't blame us because like, this is how it works in history. We learn, we un conventional wisdom gets overturned and we, we learn better. And it takes a while until we change our practices. And we're in that period now. Which is why I'm thankful for you helping spread the word here, because we can shift our thinking and do better here. We don't have to lose kids. And, and I'm, I just looked at this girl's letter and that it, I, I've seen this a million times and it still makes me emotional every time. 'cause this girl was struggling so much.
Mel Robbins (00:16:51):
Mm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:16:52):
And they used a sort of classic sticker chart to try to motivate her to behave better.
Mel Robbins (00:16:58):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:16:58):
You know, like get stuff if you behave well.
Mel Robbins (00:17:00):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:17:01):
And it wasn't working great. And I asked her, you know, when I was meeting with her, I asked her what's happening with it? She's not great at letting people know what's bothering her and things.
Mel Robbins (00:17:10):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:17:10):
But she would write for me.
Mel Robbins (00:17:12):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:17:12):
She could do it in written form. Um, and she could draw things. And so I, I asked her, you know, how the thing was going, the sticker chart, and she wrote this for me. And it says, my brain is idiotic. I make stupid mistakes. I mess everything up. I always make a mess and get hurt and ruin everything. And that's a kid we're trying to motivate to behave better. You gotta be kidding me. I mean, how we missed the mark, this kid more motivated than anybody in the face of the earth to behave. Well, why? Because she didn't wanna feel this way. Yeah. So she already has all the internal motivation in the world. And the last thing we wanna do is send her the message we don't think you're trying hard enough.
Mel Robbins (00:18:02):
And what is available to the person who's listening to you right now. And if you could speak directly to them, whether they are a parent who has a child like just spiraling from an eating disorder or spiraling with behavior issues at schools and they're getting kicked out and they're lost. Or you have somebody in your life that's spiraling with addiction. What, what do you wanna say to that person directly about what's available to them in this conversation?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:18:28):
Well, so what I i I wanna say to them is that it starts most importantly from this place of mindset.
Mel Robbins (00:18:34):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:18:34):
And that we've gotta take ourself out of this position of wanting to make somebody change, impose our will upon them in some way, whether we do that harshly or nicely. And what we need to do is remember this person's doing the best they can to handle what the world is throwing at them with the skills they're able to bring to bear in that moment. And so what we want to do is we want to try to help figure out what are they struggling with so much? Which skills are they having a hard time accessing? And how can we help them with those things? How can we help problem solve? How can we help them build skills? And I, and I have good news here too, is the skill building process. It's not something where you're gonna send your kid or somebody out to have somebody else build their skills.
(00:19:18):
You can help them do that. And it's not by some sneaky process, it's just by collaborating with them on practicing problem solving, but using the real life problems that they're confronting. And I just want to be clear that it's not like I don't reach moments where I, that that faith gets shaken because I get so upset, bothered, pissed off, et cetera. Right. And both in my own life personally, but also my clinical life and Yep. And, um, you know, I just try to hold tight to that philosophy. And when you were saying that, uh, uh, you know, a a memory came up, uh, years ago in my practice of working with an adolescent who was really, really struggling.
Mel Robbins (00:19:57):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:19:58):
And his behavior was really obnoxious too. So it, it was like, what? Um, well, he just would be really disrespectful to his parents, uh, to most adults authority figures. Yeah. And it seemed like he just didn't care. So it was so easy, it was so frustrating.
Mel Robbins (00:20:14):
Right. 'cause
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:20:14):
You sort of couldn't engage him much and it seemed like he didn't care. And I remember the day where his mom, who, who never lost hope. Um, and she brought in, you know, he was, uh, about a 15-year-old at the time. And, uh, you know, he was a pretty rough kid. And, uh, she brought in a picture of him asleep as a 2-year-old, uh, on the backseat of the car.
Mel Robbins (00:20:40):
Hmm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:20:41):
And he was just the cutest little thing. And it's giving me goosebumps right now just talking about it. And I saw this and I said to myself, like, that kid's in there somewhere, like this hardened tough kid who's really hard to access that, that there's this little adorable guy. And, you know, things have gone wrong in the interim. But I, I, I gotta believe that that kid who, you know, everybody looked at, said this would've lovely, cute kid. He's, he's in there, he wants to do well. And how, how do we access that? And so, and actually sometimes I give parents that advice with little kids. I said, you know, if you're losing faith, just watch them sleep for a little bit. 'cause they're really cute then. And they can't be obnoxious when they're sleeping or difficult. True. And it'll restore a little bit of your faith and remind yourself kids do well if they can, and then come back at it the next day. Although we're gonna get into specifics about exactly what to do. I wanna be clear, this is not just about mindset. It, it's about shifting your mindset and then shifting what you do to match that new mindset.
Mel Robbins (00:21:40):
Could you, you were talking about skills.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:21:42):
Mm-hmm
Mel Robbins (00:21:43):
Can you just list off
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:21:45):
Absolutely.
Mel Robbins (00:21:45):
Some of the skills that people that we may be dealing with in our families or at work or in life are missing
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:21:52):
Absolutely.
Mel Robbins (00:21:53):
That create challenging behavior.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:21:54):
Absolutely. So, you know, I I gave you some sort of, uh, big categories that they fall in problem solving, flexibility, frustration, tolerance. But I also told you there's 50 years of research that shows exactly where those skills are. Okay. And in essence, what we found is in their, they're in five different areas.
Mel Robbins (00:22:11):
Okay. And
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:22:11):
If we wanna use fancy languages for a moment Sure. They're what we call neurocognitive skills, which is a fancy way of saying thinking skills in essence.
Mel Robbins (00:22:19):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:22:19):
Okay. They're largely what, you know, happens in the prefrontal cortex of your brain.
(00:22:23):
Okay. Okay. Uh, so there's five areas. One, language and communication skills. Now, really easy to think about with a kid because, you know, like most two year olds are very poorly behaved. Right. We call it the terrible twos. Not 'cause they're evil little beings, but because they lack a lot of skills, including, they're not great at knowing what's bothering them. Using words to tell somebody what's bothering them, engaging in a back and forth to solve a problem. Those are language and communication skills. Now, most four year olds are better than that, uh, than two year olds of that most eight year olds better than five year olds. Most 20 year olds better than 10 year olds at that. But notice my language most. So you may be, you know, working with a 15-year-old who's got 6-year-old language skills.
Mel Robbins (00:23:06):
Mm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:23:07):
And and let's be clear, this does not just apply to kids because you may be in a marriage with a 45-year-old who really struggles to identify what's bothering them, communicate it to others, engage in the back and forth to problem solve. So that's one category. Language and communication skills.
Mel Robbins (00:23:26):
And you know what else I just kind of got, as I'm listening to you, I, I need to manage my face because I think I, I look like I'm in a state of shock the entire time I'm listening to you. So I'm like, where were you 30 years ago? Um, I, uh, you're here now and we're all gonna learn from you now. Um, is that, as you were explaining, the 2-year-old then, if you don't have the language and communication skills, it would be completely age appropriate and normal for you to exhibit challenging behavior. Yes. 'cause you don't have the language and communication skills Yes. To express what you need.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:23:59):
Well, that's what I always say. What do two year olds do when they're upset? They don't calmly express what's going on. Right. They bite, they scream, they flop, they run, they hit, you know, they do all those things. And that's what they've sort of gotten their bag of tricks in their toolbox. Uh, so if they don't develop other skills, that's what they're gonna resort to. You know, there, there's a, um, is a good analogy. A a precedent that, uh, that I like to remind myself of. 'cause I think we've made a ton of progress there. And I know this is gonna, this will resonate for you.
Mel Robbins (00:24:28):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:24:28):
Um, you know, like when you and I were in school, we didn't know much about learning disabilities.
Mel Robbins (00:24:36):
True.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:24:37):
Right. So if you had dyslexia, when you were our age growing up and you were struggling to read, people didn't say, I wonder what she's having a hard time with. They thought that you were either lazy
Mel Robbins (00:24:53):
Mm-hmm. Or dumb mm-hmm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:24:56):
And if they thought you were lazy, what would they do? They would try to motivate you to work harder to read. Which, you know, the sad reality, the ironic reality is who's working harder than anybody else in the classroom to learn how to read the kid to whom it's not coming naturally.
Mel Robbins (00:25:14):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:25:15):
And honestly, I think we, we lost a lot of kids by sort of teaching them that we thought they weren't working hard enough when actually they were working overtime. And what they were struggling with was skill, not will.
Mel Robbins (00:25:30):
Wow. The, the, the opportunity for all of us to look at any challenging behavior or any frustrating or scary dynamic with another human being as a skill issue is incredible. You've covered one of the five skills.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:25:45):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:25:45):
And that was communication and language. So what are the other four?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:25:48):
That's to the others, right. Okay. So the other has to do with attention and working memory skills. That's number two.
Mel Robbins (00:25:53):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:25:53):
Okay. And it's a big category, but, uh, you know, attention skills are like, can you focus on something not that's enthralling to you, but something that isn't that interesting or you don't exactly feel like focusing on right now, but can you sort of marshal enough attention to focus on it.
Mel Robbins (00:26:10):
Yep.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:26:11):
And can you shift your attention from one thing to the next when needed? And as a kid, by the way, you're told all the time, but even as an adult, we're told, stop paying attention to that. Start paying attention to that.
Mel Robbins (00:26:19):
Right. Okay. And then also what's confounding, whether you have a child who's a gamer or you have a young adult in your life, or a significant other who's a gamer, you look at the fact that they can focus there.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:26:31):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:26:32):
And then you're like, why the hell can't you pick up your shoes or pay attention or keep a job?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:26:38):
Well, and this is a, you know, this is a big misconception, for instance, about attentional issues as a whole.
Mel Robbins (00:26:42):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:26:43):
You know, people think that if somebody's diagnosed with attention deficit disorder, A DHD, it means they can't focus at all. It's just not true.
Mel Robbins (00:26:49):
What does it mean, doc at
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:26:50):
All? Well, it means that they have a hard time focusing on things that are not intrinsically all that interesting to them. In fact, most people diagnosed with A DHD will tell you they have the ability to hyperfocus, which is an incredible skill and strength on something they're super interested in. But it's when somebody says, well, could you pay attention to this? Now that is really hard to focus your attention on. Which by the way, for kids in school, there's a fair amount of school. They're like, I gotta force myself to pay attention to this.
Mel Robbins (00:27:18):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:27:19):
So, uh, you know, it's,
Mel Robbins (00:27:20):
And that's a skill.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:27:21):
It's a skill,
Mel Robbins (00:27:22):
Absolutely. Gotcha. And what's the third
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:27:24):
One? And, and, well, so hold on
Mel Robbins (00:27:25):
Just to, oh, we, I'm done. Oh my God. Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:27:26):
Well, I I, I snuck in attention and working memory. Oh. 'cause it's an, it's related to attention.
Mel Robbins (00:27:31):
See, I have both problems, obviously, and I'm exhibiting it in the middle of this
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:27:36):
Interview. Well, you know, most of us humans can only remember three to five things at one time. And there are five of these. So,
Mel Robbins (00:27:41):
Well, Dr. Alon, I, my, my memory not working right now. So
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:27:45):
I, okay. So keep going. Working memory just means keeping a bunch of stuff, ironically in your head at one time and balancing it together. Got it.
Mel Robbins (00:27:52):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:27:53):
Okay. But the reason that's relevant is all problem solving requires working memory. YY you don't realize, but when you're solving a problem, you have all these files opening your head and you're toggling back and forth between them all at one time. What's the problem? Have I seen this before? What did I do about it? How did it work out? Have I seen anybody else handle a problem like this? How might I do it now? Uh, and you're juggling all those things. Yep. And if you're sort of hard drive crashes, trying to juggle all those things, it gets in the way.
Mel Robbins (00:28:19):
Yep. Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:28:20):
Alright. So that's attention to working memory skills.
Mel Robbins (00:28:23):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:28:23):
Let's go to number three.
Mel Robbins (00:28:24):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:28:25):
Use jargon for one second, I'll translate it. Okay. Uh, number three is emotion and self regulation skills regulate is a word that's thrown around a lot these days. What does that mean? Well, here's the thing. Just translate it into plain old English. It means to manage or to control.
Mel Robbins (00:28:42):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:28:43):
So when people are talking about emotion regulation, right. They're talking about your ability to manage or control your emotions. Okay.
Mel Robbins (00:28:48):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:28:49):
And, uh, self self-control. What are they talking about there? They're talking about things like perhaps the most important human skill we have, which is impulse control. Okay. All day, all of us basically keep our impulses in check. And we say to ourselves like, uh, don't say that. That's a bad idea. Uh, don't, don't do that. Um, you know, we sort of check ourselves. Yeah. And I, I always tell people, if you wanna know how important impulse control is, spend a day. We should not do this today on the podcast, but spend a day where you imagine what it would be like if you did or said the first thing that came to your mind all throughout the course of the day. And you'll have, I'll
Mel Robbins (00:29:28):
See in jail,
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:29:28):
, you'll have, I was gonna say, you'll have a blast. Yeah. But yes, uh, it would be ugly. Okay. Yes. Because most of the time we're checking our impulses mm-hmm Now again, who, who's not very good at checking impulses, two year olds, four year olds. But guess what? Teenagers, some teenagers, but also adults.
Mel Robbins (00:29:43):
True.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:29:44):
Okay. Um, and you know, if I could just point out really quickly a a again, a sad irony here.
Mel Robbins (00:29:49):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:29:50):
People who are very impulsive do stuff without thinking about the consequences of their actions. It's a definition of impulse control. Think about the likely consequences of what you do before you do it.
Mel Robbins (00:30:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:30:02):
So if you have poor impulse control, you do stuff without thinking first, then you get hit with consequences. Typically, the reason this is sadly ironic is guess what consequences require to be effective in the first place.
Mel Robbins (00:30:16):
Impulse control.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:30:18):
You got it. 'cause you've gotta be able to stop in the moment and say, okay, if I do this, what will happen? Oh gosh, if I do that, there's probably gonna be this consequence or this bad outcome. I probably shouldn't do that. Let me reel it back in. So in other words, consequences only work if somebody has good impulse control.
Mel Robbins (00:30:33):
Because, and I just wanna make sure we unpack this. 'cause I think this is really important because a lot of us get in this loop, especially with kids or even with people in our lives that are adults, where you literally, like, let's, let's give an example. 'cause I'm thinking about like a a a a kid who is not studying at school and you start hammering them. You, you gotta get more motivated, got your grades up, or else you're gonna get on academic probation and then you're gonna get kicked out. Well, if you have poor impulse control, you're gonna go party all weekend or you're gonna blow off class. 'cause you don't have the ability
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:31:09):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:31:09):
To think about the fact that this is going to happen. And then when it happens, it's not really that motivating because you still don't have the impulse control to think about the consequences if you don't get your act together to get back into school.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:31:22):
You got it. So consequences in essence, don't work for the people to whom they are most applied is basically what're
Mel Robbins (00:31:27):
Saying. And that's why it's so frustrating to the rest of us, because you can see the consequences and you're like, why is this idiot not seeing what's about to happen? Do they not care about their family or their life or their future or my feelings or all that? So I can see how not seeing impulse control as a skill that could be developed creates this real like almost toxic situation between you and another person where you just lose your power, they lose theirs. You're now in this weird standoff Yeah. And it spirals.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:32:01):
Absolutely. Well, and and we should be clear, Mel.
Mel Robbins (00:32:03):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:32:03):
None of these skills that I'm talking about are correlated with intelligence. Okay. So this is not like, if you're struggling with any of these skills, just like dyslexia, right. If you can't decode words, that doesn't make you not smart. In fact, some of the most brilliant, innovative, interesting people had a hard time decoding words, their brains worked a little differently.
Mel Robbins (00:32:21):
Right?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:32:21):
Right. Same is true with these skills. You, you can have poor language and communication skills, but be brilliant. You can, uh, poor attention and working memory, emotion and self-regulation skills. And we still got two categories to go through. You can struggle with those skills and be brilliant.
Mel Robbins (00:32:34):
Well, and what you als what you know, that I think would be helpful for the person listening to hear and understand is that the majority of people that end up in jail actually are missing these skills or have a learning disability or have Yes. Impulse control issues. So it is not ever that you're dealing with a quote, bad human being. You're dealing with somebody,
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:32:56):
You got it.
Mel Robbins (00:32:56):
Who would do well if they can and they didn't have the conditions or the skill building
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:33:02):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:33:02):
That would've helped them.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:33:03):
I, I remember when I, I first presented these ideas at one of the prisons, we were working with one of the senior guards there, uh, and everybody sort of respected the most. He said after he said, this is really interesting. He said, you know, I, I think this might apply to like say 10%, maybe 5%, uh, of the young people we have here. But the rest of 'em, you know, they're actually criminals. And what they lack is the motivation to not behave this way. And a couple years into our work together, it was amazing when he was like, you know, doc gotta tell you, I I still think there might be a couple of like sociopaths here, but like 95 or more percent of these people here are struggling with the exact skills you're talking about.
Mel Robbins (00:33:47):
Yeah. And that, and it makes it heartbreaking. And, and that's why I'm thrilled that you're here because I think seeing these five skills that are things that anybody can learn, but when you're missing, it creates challenging behavior. This is the heart of what we're talking about because it allows you to approach any dynamic with any human being in a very different way.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:34:09):
You got it.
Mel Robbins (00:34:10):
What is skill number four?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:34:11):
Cognitive flexibility, cognitive, fancy word for thinking. Mm-hmm So we're talking about flexible thinking
Mel Robbins (00:34:17):
And what is flexible thinking?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:34:18):
Well, it, you know, there's a lot of, um, people out there who struggle with flexible thinking. What I mean by that is that they tend to be more sort of rigid or mm-hmm Concrete or literal or, or we call it black and white in their thinking. It's sort of like all or none.
Mel Robbins (00:34:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:34:34):
And sort of the, the grays of the world are harder. Uh, you know, as, as kids you can spot these kids because, uh, they're the kids who if everything goes according to the rules, the routine, the structure, uh, the, the template they had in their head, life is good.
Mel Robbins (00:34:48):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:34:48):
But any change, any unpredictability, ambiguity, uncertainty, entering a situation, they don't know what it's gonna look like. Uh, they don't have the template for, um, and sort of winging it.
Mel Robbins (00:35:01):
What's interesting is, uh, is I, I don't know if as you're listening to Dr. Alon, you're like, that's me, that's me, that's me, that's me. I'm checking all five and I'm missing all of them. But what's interesting to me is that I can say that I definitely default to that all or none. Mm-hmm Like, things are absolutely fabulous or they're horrendous.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:35:22):
Uhhuh ,
Mel Robbins (00:35:22):
Or it's gonna be amazing. Or this is the worst. Uhhuh, or, and my husband and kids often feel like they're on this emotional roller coaster with me because they're not quite sure. Are we gonna get the Mel who's at level 100? Are we gonna get her zero?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:35:37):
Mm-hmm
Mel Robbins (00:35:38):
And I work at this. Yes. So I hear what you're saying as a skill. Yes. Like I have to practice these tools of catching my own
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:35:46):
Thinking. Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:35:48):
And wanting to have a mindset that is more flexible. And over time I've absolutely become way more flexible.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:35:58):
So this is the thing. It's, you know, kids' brains are very malleable. Yes. So you, you know, changeable uhhuh, you can help them learn skills more easily. But sometimes people think that like once you're an adult, you know, you can't develop these skills. That's nonsense. You can change the adult brain. But as you're saying, it takes repetition and, and practice. But you can become a more flexible thinker. Just like you can become better at regulating, controlling, managing your emotions. You can become better at using your language and communication skills. And, uh, you, you know, so these are, uh, this is a power of thinking skill, not will, because if it's about skill, not will skills can be built. And I have to say, I have never seen anyone at any age with any level of skill where they couldn't improve that skill incrementally. So I'm talking about the most severe cases. There's always opportunity to improve our skills. Always.
Mel Robbins (00:36:51):
Absolutely. Like, this is so empowering. What is the fifth?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:36:55):
The fifth is a big category, social thinking skills.
Mel Robbins (00:37:00):
And what does that mean?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:37:01):
So it means all the types of skills that go into managing social interactions, like basic ones. Like how do you start a conversation with somebody? Um, how do you join a group of people who are doing something smoothly without sort of butting in or upsetting things? Mm. Um, to more subtle, complicated skills, like knowing how you come across how your behavior impacts other people. Uh, I call it your feedback loop. Got it. Got. Which we are all so reliant on in the world. Uh, basically we do stuff and say stuff and look around and say like, how's it coming across? And we adjust our behavior if all's going well.
Mel Robbins (00:37:38):
Mm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:37:38):
But some folks don't have a feedback loop.
Mel Robbins (00:37:41):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:37:41):
Or keep it open for a very short amount of time. Right. Or misjudge the feedback.
Mel Robbins (00:37:45):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:37:45):
Uh, so, you know, tho those are more complicated skills and probably empathy and perspective taking is one of the most complicated of all social thinking skills.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:37:55):
You know, which is in essence can you try to understand where somebody else is coming from and all these skills can be interrelated to, so these five we talked about, they're not mutually exclusive. It's not, I have a hard time with this and nothing else. 'cause you can imagine, you know, if, if, uh, you're a very concrete, literal thinker, it might be hard for you to step into somebody else's shoes and empathize.
Mel Robbins (00:38:16):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:38:16):
Or if you tend to, uh, think in a very black and white way, your emotions may spiral pretty quickly if you start to catastrophize, as you said a moment
Mel Robbins (00:38:24):
Ago. Right. And I can also think of things like, especially in the social behavior. Like if you're somebody that just doesn't have the skill of the, the cues.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:38:36):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:38:36):
You're the awkward kid or the awkward person at work that just stands a little too close to everybody.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:38:40):
Yes. Yep.
Mel Robbins (00:38:41):
Or clo like close talker. Or you follow somebody too closely into the bathroom and you just don't know.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:38:47):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:38:48):
That, that then becomes its own thing that makes you start to wonder, why don't I have friends? And why do I feel like I don't belong here?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:38:56):
Yep.
Mel Robbins (00:38:57):
And so how does missing those skills create this dynamic that is challenging for us with other people?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:39:06):
Well, the way it happens is because you struggle with these skills. You have a hard time meeting people's expectations. You end up doing things that people don't like, that they don't want you to do, and not doing things people want you to do. People get frustrated with you.
Mel Robbins (00:39:22):
Yep.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:39:23):
And then people default to assuming this is a lack of will. Yep.
(00:39:27):
And they try to motivate you through incentives, rewards, consequences, to try to behave better. And that doesn't work because you're already trying hard, you're trying harder than anybody else to behave. Well, I mean, this is one of the, the, the secrets. People think sometimes people struggle with their behavior aren't trying hard to behave well, no. You know, who's not trying hard to behave well, well-behaved people. 'cause it comes naturally. The people who are really working hard are the folks who, for whom it doesn't come naturally. And then I gotta say, what gets really dangerous is not only are rewards and consequences, incentives, things like that, not effective, but they can cause real harm. And if I can talk about two ways they cause
Mel Robbins (00:40:13):
Harm, please. Because I think where, where we're going now is, especially if you think about it from a parenting context.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:40:19):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:40:20):
That when you get frustrated, you then discipline. Got it. And you punish and you either spank or scream or yell or timeouts or whatever it may be.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:40:32):
Yep.
Mel Robbins (00:40:33):
And what is the impact if we're dealing with a skill situation?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:40:37):
Yeah. And, and by the way, that word discipline is an interesting one because people somehow have equated discipline with punishment.
Mel Robbins (00:40:44):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:40:45):
Actually, the origins of the word don't involve punishment at all. The origins of the word discipline revolve around teaching really means to teach. Huh. And punishment is a very poor way to teach. Now if you think skill not well now you're in the business of teaching 'cause you know what you're teaching, which is skills. But to go back to the harm two ways. Okay. That I think classic discipline, rewards, consequences, things like that cause harm. One is that when you try to motivate somebody with some external motivator, some like tangible thing that you'll get this, um, if you do this right, or you won't get this if you don't. There have been thousands of studies that have shown not just with kids, but with adults too, that when you use external motivators to try to get kids to do stuff or people to do stuff, it actually decreases their internal drive to do what you want them to do.
(00:41:45):
They do become more motivated. But what do they become more motivated to get the thing, get the stuff. They actually become less motivated to achieve the goal you want them to achieve. Which is ironic. So not only is it not work, it makes matters worse. And, and this Mel is not a small correlation. This is a strong, what we call in research negative correlation. The more use external reinforcers, the less internal drive developed. And it actually can cause even more problems. Because what ends up happening is people, uh, end up behaving in unethical ways also because they're just trying to get the stuff.
Mel Robbins (00:42:18):
Mm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:42:18):
I wanna talk about the second way that I think rewards and punishments can really be harmful. 'cause not only do they decrease internal motivation mm-hmm Intrinsic motivation mm-hmm But for kids and adults, they can do real damage to self-esteem. Because here's the thing, you know, if we're constantly using rewards and consequences, we're sending the not so subtle message that we think at least part of the problem here is you're not trying hard enough. Or why would we smart adults be trying to motivate you? And my grandfather, who I was incredibly close to, and uh, he lived till he was 106. Wow. Um, yeah. My, my grandmother just celebrated her hundred seventh, uh, birthday.
Mel Robbins (00:43:04):
We call that a Smuckers grandparent You know how they used to put him on tv? Yes, yes. With the Smuckers Jam.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:43:09):
So my, my grandfather I was really, really close to, uh, grew up in Tupelo, Mississippi at the beginning of the 20th century. And what he saw in his life is amazing. But he had all these like great grandfatherly Sam sayings, these like mm-hmm Pearls of wisdom he would impart. And one thing he would say to me all the time is he would say, you know what, Stewart, if you give a dog a name, eventually they'll answer to it. If you give a dog a name, eventually they'll answer to it. And what I realized with the kids we're talking about today is that if you treat a kid like they're lazy, unmotivated, don't care, aren't trying hard enough, we shouldn't be surprised when over time, guess what? They start to look like and talk like, and act like kids are lazy, unmotivated don't care, aren't trying hard enough. Because if you give a dog a name, eventually they'll answer to it. And I want to be clear. Us parents, you know, we would never set out to make our kids feel that way. Of course, teachers never of course try to make people feel that way. But with every reward and consequence, again, comes the not so subtle message. Hey, if you tried harder, this would go better. It's unavoidable.
Mel Robbins (00:44:24):
I'd love to have you talk a little bit about that sentiment that some parents have or some people have that's like, well, you know, I, nobody talked to me about that and I turned out okay. Like how you address that sort of generational pattern
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:44:41):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:44:41):
And cynicism that has been passed down through families and in our society.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:44:46):
Yeah. Well, I mean, typically when people say to me, you know, nobody ever did this for me. And I turned out okay, they're saying that with a, an edge because there's parts of them that maybe didn't turn out okay. And, you know, if you can get to that part with them, which is what do they wish was different about their life and their skills and how they operate, it opens up a lot of doors there. I, you know, my feeling about that is each generation, there's actually been research on this, each generation feels like the generation that comes after it has it easier. Um, isn't learning the right skills, uh, is a more spoiled generation than the previous one. This is, if you go back hundreds of years, this happens. And look, the world changes and uh, you know, we need to adapt with it.
(00:45:38):
I mean, look, when people say we wouldn't do this that way, when I grew up, we used to think that corporal punishment that actually injuring kids, hurting traumatizing kids. That that was a good form of, of, of discipline. Right? We learn things okay. We learn that actually that causes harm. It doesn't help. And we need to change with the times. And you mentioned that, you know, trauma, since we can image the brain, one of the clearest things we've found is expose somebody to trauma or to chronic toxic stress in childhood. Guess what it does? It delays, it changes the brain. It delays skills in those five areas we talked about before. Hmm. It's one of the primary reasons for very challenging and concerning behavior. Kids who have trauma histories, that trauma has gotten gotten in their way of their skills. So if you want to be sort of really trauma sensitive, you really need to read, realize behavior is about skill. Not will.
Mel Robbins (00:46:34):
I'm really glad that you said that because when you go back to the five things that are skills that are missing, if somebody is exhibiting challenging behavior and now you're connecting the dots to any form of trauma is interfering with your ability to have those five skills. Whether you're talking about, uh, racism or poverty or having a parent going through a struggle or financial hardship or a parent that's absent, or mental illness or abuse, like all of these things,
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:47:05):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:47:06):
Impact your ability to develop these skills, which then impact the behavior that then becomes seen by the outside world is challenging.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:47:14):
And then to make it worse, the outside world typically, uh, reacts in punitive ways. Which, what does that do? It adds stress. So it further gets in the way of skill development. It only escalates the behavior. And then when we have escalating behavior, we tend to up the ante on the discipline. So it becomes this cycle of sort of chronic stress and punitive discipline that just keeps making matters worse and worse and worse. And the good news is we don't have to respond to that behavior. Punitively. We can respond in a different way, a way that I call with relational discipline, discipline that doesn't leverage power and control, but leverages relationship. 'cause remember, the biggest predictor of helping somebody change, helping somebody build skills, is the degree of helping relationships. So we can respond with relational discipline.
Mel Robbins (00:48:09):
So Dr. Alon, I'm totally bought in All right. Give me the step by step. Let's
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:48:14):
Go, what do we do? So, uh, you know, here's a simple way to think about things, okay? And I always say to people, don't confuse simple with easy. Okay?
Mel Robbins (00:48:20):
Yep.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:48:20):
But simple is this, pick any problem that you have with anybody, literally anybody in your life. Okay? In other words, anything they're doing you don't want 'em to do or not doing, you want 'em to do anything,
Mel Robbins (00:48:29):
Okay?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:48:29):
And at the end of the day, you really only have three options for how to handle those. And uh, just to be clear, we didn't create these in collaborative problem solving. We just put labels on them. Got, we call them your three plans, okay? Which is another word saying your options for how to handle a problem. You need a plan, what's your plan?
Mel Robbins (00:48:48):
Okay?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:48:48):
Okay. There's only three.
Mel Robbins (00:48:51):
Okay?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:48:51):
We call 'em plan A , plan B, and plan C.
Mel Robbins (00:48:55):
So give me an example so that, so you've got somebody in your life
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:48:58):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:48:59):
That has a problem. Yeah. And it could be anything from somebody who has a mental health issue and is not taking their meds or using their tools. Absolutely. It could be somebody who is not looking for a job. It could be a kid who is oppositional.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:49:12):
It could be as simple as, as a kid not getting outta bed on time to get to school's. Let's
Mel Robbins (00:49:16):
Use that
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:49:17):
One. It could be much, much, much more complicated than that.
Mel Robbins (00:49:21):
Okay?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:49:21):
So, uh, you've got three options, okay? Plan A is when you decide to impose your will to try to make the person do what you want them to do.
Mel Robbins (00:49:31):
Okay? So plan is a is I'm getting them out of bed.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:49:33):
I, I I'm gonna impose my will. Now there are different ways you can try to impose your will. Okay? And if the kid's small enough, you could physically try to impose your will Yeah. By getting them outta bed. But the other way we try to impose our will is no surprise reward and punishment. Rewards and consequences. Right? Right. Either way, you're sort of leveraging power and control.
Mel Robbins (00:49:50):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:49:50):
To try to make somebody do what you want them to do.
Mel Robbins (00:49:53):
Okay?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:49:54):
That's one option. Okay? Plan A. Okay. Second option, call it plan B. That's our code for collaborative problem solving.
Mel Robbins (00:50:01):
Okay?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:50:02):
That's when you're gonna collaborate to try to solve the problem, work together to try to solve the problem. And this is an important phrase in a mutually satisfactory way. So you're gonna work together to solve it in a way that works well for the both of you.
Mel Robbins (00:50:15):
Okay? And
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:50:15):
We're gonna need to go into detail about that option.
Mel Robbins (00:50:17):
Okay?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:50:18):
Third option plan C. Plan C is when you decide to drop it, drop your expectation or in essence solve the problem the way they want it solved.
Mel Robbins (00:50:30):
Not when they want it solved,
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:50:31):
Not forever.
Mel Robbins (00:50:32):
Right? Okay. But just for
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:50:33):
Now.
Mel Robbins (00:50:33):
Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:50:34):
Uh, and what's really important about that is it's a strategic choice.
Mel Robbins (00:50:38):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:50:38):
Okay. It is not giving in, giving in actually most of the time is when you try to use plan A and make somebody do what you want them to do and they don't do it, and then you throw up your hands and fight fine. Forget it.
Mel Robbins (00:50:49):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:50:49):
Uh, that's failed. Plan A leading to bailing.
Mel Robbins (00:50:52):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:50:52):
Okay. Plan C is being strategic. Plan C is saying, you know what, we got like 10 problems to solve here. Can't sell 'em all at once. I'm gonna just drop this one for now.
Mel Robbins (00:51:02):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:51:02):
So those are your three options. Impose your will, plan A, collaborate to solve the problem. Plan B, drop it.
Mel Robbins (00:51:08):
Got
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:51:09):
It. Plan C.
Mel Robbins (00:51:09):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:51:10):
And the first thing I tell parents or anybody, this could be a manager in a workplace, is, alright, list out the problems you have, which with as much specificity as possible, be as specific as possible. Which problems you're talking about. Like a kid won't get outta the bed. Won't get outta bed, et cetera. Okay. Um, and just decide how do you want to handle it A, B, or C. And that should be informed by what you're trying to accomplish.
Mel Robbins (00:51:32):
That's basically step one.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:51:33):
It is. Step one
Mel Robbins (00:51:34):
Is you have to choose the approach and choose it powerfully.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:51:37):
And, and it depends what you're trying to accomplish. Because plan A imposing your will, it may get your expectation met.
Mel Robbins (00:51:43):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:51:44):
But it might get very ugly on you.
Mel Robbins (00:51:45):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:51:46):
It might harm the relationship.
Mel Robbins (00:51:48):
Yep.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:51:48):
And there's no skills that are being developed by imposing your will upon another human. Okay.
Mel Robbins (00:51:54):
Got it. Okay. I, this is, so I just wanna make sure that as you're listening, you get step one is you are going to list out everything that's frustrating you. And then you're going to choose between these three plans.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:52:07):
Yes. But let me make one clar clarifying comment here. Uh, list out these things that are frustrating you, that's gonna look like a list of behaviors Okay. That are frustrating you. And then just sort of put that aside, get it outta your system. I want you to really make a list of the specific situations in which those frustrating behaviors are happening. Okay. So do your list should not look like, uh, disrespect, um, screaming, crying, running out of the room, it should look like. When's that happening? Over what, what are the triggers? The precipitants, the situations. Okay. Uh, 'cause that's really what you wanna prioritize with these three
Mel Robbins (00:52:47):
Plans. Got it. Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:52:48):
Okay. So plan A. Yep. We talked about that. Plan C, when would you choose Plan C? Plan C is gonna keep things calm. Yes. So if you just wanna avoid a meltdown or avoid a challenging situation for now, it'll do that. The problem is, the problem lives on, right? Your expectations haven't been met. Skills aren't built by just avoiding something temporarily.
Mel Robbins (00:53:07):
You know what I love about this conversation is that, you know, all of this work that I'm doing about saying, let them and then saying, let me let, when you say let them, you're choosing plan C. But then when you say the second part, which is, let me, you come back to your work, which is, let me actually follow works when I'm ready to do it.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:53:26):
Correct. And I was thinking about that as well, because you talk about in the book how, you know, let them is not giving in. No, it's not sort of seeding. It's actually a very mindful decision. It's strategic. You are, and, and for parents, by the way, when we talk about plan C, I always ask people a trick question. I'm like, with Plan C, who's in charge? And they usually say, the kid. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You are still, every bit is in charge as a parent 'cause you're deciding not to pursue this.
Mel Robbins (00:53:57):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:53:57):
For now,
Mel Robbins (00:53:57):
Because you're recognizing the way you've been doing it isn't working, it's just backfiring. And this is out of your control at the moment. And so you're choosing not to stress yourself out about it.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:54:09):
You got it. And you're choosing not to, uh, if you're not gonna pursue an expectation that's been leading to challenging behavior, you're gonna reduce challenging behavior.
Mel Robbins (00:54:17):
So let's say you, and again, I think what's fascinating to con continue to remind you as you're listening is that this applies for any situation. Whether you can't get your kid outta bed or whether you have somebody spiraling with an eating disorder,
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:54:32):
You got it.
Mel Robbins (00:54:32):
Who is, who is refusing treatment?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:54:34):
It it, it really involves any form of challenging or concerning behavior. I always go back to anything somebody's doing. You don't want 'em to do or not doing, you want 'em to do. We talked about in depth about plan A and plan C. We didn't talk in depth about the most important plan, which is plan B.
Mel Robbins (00:54:47):
What does that look like?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:54:48):
So that's when you're collaborating to solve a problem together with a kid.
Mel Robbins (00:54:52):
And so let's say you're in a really challenging situation with somebody. Yeah. Whether I was, you know, I was in a situation with my husband who was struggling with depression.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:55:00):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:55:00):
Did not wanna seek treatment.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:55:01):
Mm-hmm
Mel Robbins (00:55:02):
I have a number of friends that are dealing with situations with adult kids.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:55:08):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:55:08):
Who are struggling with mental health or struggling with an eating disorder. Also mental health.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:55:13):
Yep.
Mel Robbins (00:55:13):
And it's a wildly frustrating dynamic.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:55:17):
Absolutely. And so what you say to yourself, let's say the problem, the specific problem was that somebody you love is really struggling and not seeking help.
Mel Robbins (00:55:24):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:55:24):
Okay. And again, that's a much more challenging one than perhaps the kid not getting outta bed to go to to school. How do you, how do get them to collaborate? But you say yourself, the first thing I gotta do is decide, okay, am I gonna try to impose my will and make them get treatment? Well, first of all, it's not gonna work. Okay. But it's gonna have all those other downsides. Am I just gonna drop it so that we're not having all this conflict, but of course the problem's not solved. Or am I gonna try to collaborate to solve the problem? Because that option has you pursuing the thing you're worried about trying to actually solve the problem. So it won't keep rolling on. But there are other benefits. This is the only one of the three options where you're actually building that helping relationship. I mentioned earlier that is the number one predictor of whether anybody's gonna change their behavior anyways. And here's perhaps my favorite thing about this, the ingredients to it, which we're about to talk about. If you just follow those ingredients, that's where the skills training happens. That's where people practice and develop their skills. Because this is gonna seem really simple. But if somebody struggles with problem solving skills, what's the best way to help them develop those skills?
Mel Robbins (00:56:35):
To help them figure out how to solve a problem,
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:56:37):
Practice problem solving with them, and not some hypothetical problem like in a workbook or something. But take a real problem and problem solve using a structure that's proven an evidence-based structure for solving problems.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:56:51):
And that's what I think we should go to next, which is, okay, what do those ingredients look like?
Mel Robbins (00:56:55):
So how do we do that?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:56:56):
Okay. Three ingredients to this process.
Mel Robbins (00:56:59):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:56:59):
Okay. The first ingredient, the hardest, the most important. We call it the empathy ingredient. Okay. And the reason it's so hard is I think most of us misunderstand what the word empathy means.
Mel Robbins (00:57:14):
What does it mean?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:57:15):
It means understanding. And we think that empathy means sort of expressing, you know, that we care by saying something like, you know, I can tell you're really struggling. People think that's empathy. It's actually not really empathy. Empathy is really trying to understand somebody else's perspective, point of view, concern, what's hard for them. So the first ingredient, the empathy ingredient, is not coming in with your perspective, your point of view, your solutions, which is the mistake we make all the time. Instead, it's starting with, let me understand where you're coming from. So there's a situation I want to talk to you about. Let me understand where you're coming from. And empathy is the most powerful human regulator we have. You wanna calm someone, make them accessible. It's all about empathy. It is the most powerful way. And I hope, I'm sure, Mel, you've experienced this, I've experienced this. If somebody really empathizes with you, really tries to understand where you're coming from, it is incredibly calming. And it's calming upon your whole system. I mean, this is why, you know, you can, your words can literally change the person across the table next to you thousands of miles away. They, it can change their blood pressure, their skin conductance, their heart rate, empathy regulates. And when people are regulated, they're much more able to express what's going on for them.
Mel Robbins (00:58:43):
I dunno who said this, but when I heard this, I was like, oh, I think I understand what empathy, especially as a parent, but also truly in any relationship means. They said it's not your child's job to help you understand them.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:59:06):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:59:06):
It's your job, your job to figure out who they are.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:59:11):
You got it Now, I think though, that is really hard to put into practice. And so I actually spent, this is gonna sound ridiculous, but No
Mel Robbins (00:59:19):
It doesn't. But what, what
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:59:20):
I spent like five years
Mel Robbins (00:59:22):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:59:23):
Intensively studying the first ingredient of our problem solving process.
Mel Robbins (00:59:27):
Well, thank God, because we all need to know how to do this. 'cause I don't think any of us really, I think we do it performatively
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:59:33):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:59:33):
Where we want to try to understand, but we don't know how to step into someone else's shoes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:59:39):
Yes. You got it.
Mel Robbins (00:59:40):
And, and really attempt to understand what it's like being them.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (00:59:45):
You got it. And so I, I spent these years, we, we have all these recordings of people doing this, um, from different places and people we work with. And I basically poured over them my own work and basically said, when this first ingredient empathy goes, well what are people doing? And when it goes off the rails, what are people doing? And I'm pleased to say like the result is it's not rocket science. When we do a good job of empathizing with another human, we're doing four things and four things only. Okay. And anytime we do anything other than those four , it tends to go off the rails. So here are the four, I promise they're not rocket science. Okay. Two of them are information gathering tools, asking questions, you know, clarifying questions like any good detective would do. Yeah. Trying to understand what's going on.
(01:00:30):
Okay. 'cause that's your job. You're a detective. Trying to understand the other person's point of view. Ask questions, number one. Okay. If they're having a hard time filling you in, take some guesses, educated guesses, do it tentatively 'cause you're not the expert on them and their experience. But educated guesses, questions and guesses. Those are the information gathering tools. The other tools are what I call the regulating tools. They are what calms someone down if they're getting upset, shutting down. And those two tools are reflective, listening and reassurance. Reflective listening simply looks like when I ask you questions or take a guess, anything you communicate back to me, I let you know that I heard you. Okay. And I try to tell people, especially with adolescents, but with anybody, you know, avoid the sort of rote, just like saying exactly back to you, exactly what you said. 'cause that's, that's cheesy. It upsets people and it doesn't show that you really heard them.
Mel Robbins (01:01:30):
Mm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:01:31):
Instead in your own words, reflective listening is saying something like, okay, so let me see if I got this straight. What I hear you saying is, and then in my own words,
Mel Robbins (01:01:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:01:39):
And other people call this active listening, et cetera. Yep. Crucial.
Mel Robbins (01:01:42):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:01:43):
Fourth one. Okay. 'cause we've got questions and guesses.
Mel Robbins (01:01:45):
Yep.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:01:46):
We've got reflective listening. Last one, we reassurance and reassurance. What I mean by that is reassure the person that this is not some tricky form of plan A where you're about to try to impose your will. 'cause too often what we do is we say, lemme try to listen to you. And now let me tell you what, tell you what needs happen happen. Okay. Uh, and by the way, kids are onto this like unbelievably and, and we do it so much that I have to say one of the biggest impediments to getting this off the ground is kids are skeptical. Like when we start this, they're like, Uhhuh. Yeah. What new form of plan A did you learn?
Mel Robbins (01:02:23):
Yeah. Now you had your session with Dr. Avalon Exactly. And now you're gonna come check the boxes and then drag me back to therapy. I get you. This
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:02:31):
Is going, I kids say like, what did you do to my mom? She doesn't even sound like herself anymore. But, um, so reassurance to be more specific, the way to do it is to say something like, I just wanna understand, or one of my favorites is, I know there must be an important reason that,
Mel Robbins (01:02:50):
Hmm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:02:51):
Fill in the blank with the behavior not so wild about. 'cause I always remind myself, I may not love somebody's behavior. I'm sure there's good concerns behind it. And that's what you're trying to uncover with empathizing. So you're asking questions if need be, you take a guess. If you hear anything from them, you reflect it back to make sure you got it. And if you need to reassure them, so it looks like, you know, hey, I wanted to talk to you about how you've been feeling. And I, I know I've been on you to get some help, but obviously there's good reasons why you haven't and maybe I haven't done a great job listening. Can, can, can you fill me in? Like, what's going on? Why are, why do you think that's the case for you? And I'm sure you got a good reason. And then Well,
Mel Robbins (01:03:30):
That is so disarming,
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:03:32):
Right?
Mel Robbins (01:03:32):
Like, even as I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of somebody.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:03:36):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (01:03:37):
Because what you've probably experienced is the tension and the pressure and the judgment and the standoff. And the only way that you can feel some semblance over of control over your life is to resist what somebody's trying to make you do.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:03:51):
You got it. You got it. And I, I promise you, you can't go wrong if you stick to those four things. You, I'm not saying it's magic, but it won't go badly. And it's almost impossible for somebody to get really worked up or shut down when all you're doing is trying to understand patiently. And if they're looking frustrated at all, you're reassuring them. And you know, sometimes you have to press pause and come back to it later. Sure. But you won't go wrong with those four things.
Mel Robbins (01:04:19):
Just to recap, to make sure I'm tracking.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:04:21):
Yep.
Mel Robbins (01:04:22):
The first thing is for you to really sit down and take a look at what is the specific dynamic and when does it happen.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:04:29):
You got it.
Mel Robbins (01:04:29):
That is bothering you. Yep. And then you have to make a conscious decision mm-hmm About whether you're gonna go with plan A, which is imposing what you want, which we know doesn't work. Plan B, which is the kind of collaborative approach based in the research and the neuroscience and all of the, the work that you do, which is about you activating this helping relationship.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:04:53):
Yep.
Mel Robbins (01:04:53):
Or there's plan C, which is just use the let them theory and make a decision and say, let them. And I am going to say, let me come back to this when I'm ready to follow Dr. Avalon's approach, And now we're at the part where you have sat down and you have really led with empathy.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:05:11):
Yep.
Mel Robbins (01:05:11):
And we have asked the open-ended questions. Uh, I forgot the second part because I'm missing skill number two, where you have the exec, the, the ability to have a working memory So I'm gonna be in there as I'm listening, I'm like, what, three So what's the next
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:05:27):
Step? So, so I'm gonna do this with my hands here. Okay. 'cause basically what you've done in that first ingredient, the empathy ingredient
Mel Robbins (01:05:33):
Yep.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:05:33):
Is you've gotten their concern or perspective on the table. Got it. Only once you feel like you've got that on the table and they're reasonably calm. And why are they calm? Because empathy is regulating. Then you move to the second ingredient, which is where you are going to share your perspective, your point of view, your concern.
Mel Robbins (01:05:51):
Now let me ask a question about this though. Yes. 'cause you've just reassured them you're not doing anything.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:05:55):
So should you do it in that
Mel Robbins (01:05:56):
Conversation? Or how do you set this up so it doesn't feel like a bait and switch?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:06:00):
Well, no, no. But notice what I said. You're not sharing your solution
Mel Robbins (01:06:04):
To
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:06:04):
The problem. If you were, that would be what I call tricky plan A. You're sharing what you're worried about, why you're having this conversation in the first place, not your solution. And this is the heart of collaborative problem solving.
Mel Robbins (01:06:18):
You know what? I've just, I just had a huge breakthrough. This is one of the skills that I need because I think whenever I get worried or frustrated, I default immediately to problem solving mode.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:06:30):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (01:06:30):
Yes. And that creates a tremendous number of problems in my life because I'm either running people over
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:06:37):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (01:06:37):
Or I'm frustrated. Yeah. Because I see a solution that I think works, but now somebody feels like they're being minimized or micromanaged.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:06:45):
Yep. Yep. I mean, look, the reality is people want advice far less often than we think. And even when people seem open to advice, uh, they're typically not gonna follow the advice if they haven't been co-authors of the solution where their concern and perspective is accurately represented. Yeah.
Mel Robbins (01:07:03):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:07:04):
So after you understand what's going on with them, you just share your perspective, your point of view, what you are worried about. Yeah. What you're worried about, not your solution. So if you had a solution in mind, you said, I think they need to do this. Right? Like if you said they have to go see a psychiatrist and get medicine. Right. I would say slow down, Mel Um, so you're saying they have to get medicine. Why? Why do you think they need medicine? Well, they're, they're horribly depressed. They can't get outta bed. Okay. So your concern is how depressed they are and that they're not able to get outta bed. Fill me in more about what you're worried about. I, I just, I, I I feel like I'm losing them. I feel like I'm, you know? Right. So they're slipping away from, okay, good. I've got your concerns on the table. Yeah. So instead of saying, okay, I heard you, you need to go get medicine, you're saying, okay, I, I heard where you're coming from and I, I, I like to teach people say the word and not, but 'cause but is I heard you, but here's the real deal.
Mel Robbins (01:07:54):
Yeah.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:07:54):
And is I heard you and I'm worried that it's hard for you to get outta bed and I feel like I'm losing you. And I just see how much you're struggling. Now we have two sets of concerns on the table.
Mel Robbins (01:08:05):
Hmm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:08:06):
Then and only then do we move to the last ingredient, the one everybody's really eager to get to, which is where you're inviting the person to problem together to brainstorm solutions. But you have to tee it up like this. The reason I keep using my hands like this, if you only have one set of concerns on the table and it's Mels, which plan are you using here?
Mel Robbins (01:08:25):
Well, and also mine. And also when you got the one hand up, it looks like you're about to get smacked So, no, I'm serious. Like I I, the visual's really good because if you think about it, like the whole three step approach is about getting their worries and their experience on the table and your worries.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:08:43):
Yep.
Mel Robbins (01:08:44):
But zero solution right now.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:08:45):
And then you're working
Mel Robbins (01:08:46):
Just like, let's talk about what we're both concerned about.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:08:48):
You got it. And then you're working together. And I tell parents all the time, if you want a little tricky reminder here, a little, uh, trick to help you remember things. If you only have one set of concerns on the table and it's the adults you're headed for plan A. If you only have one sentence, the child's what plan you headed for plan C, how do you know you're doing plan B? You must have both sets of concerns on the table.
Mel Robbins (01:09:09):
Oh, adults,
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:09:11):
Child,
Mel Robbins (01:09:11):
Child. Both. That's why. So it's adult, both child. I got it. That's why there's three plans. You're a
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:09:18):
Genius. And here's the other thing.
Mel Robbins (01:09:20):
I think I can remember that.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:09:21):
Okay, good. Well, it's only three. Here's the other thing that's, that's really important here is there's an, this order is intentional. Notice we don't start with the adult concern, then try to clarify what's going on for the child and then invite them because they will shut down. And there, there's a reason for that. Because our brains work in a certain way. Okay. We, we, information doesn't hit the smart part of our brain first. Which is why you can't just start problem solving. You've got to regulate a child before they're gonna be able to relate to you before you can reason with them. And that's a, that rubric is a rubric, uh, coined by a good friend and colleague of mine, Dr. Bruce Perry, who does a lot of work with very traumatized kids, regulate relate reason. Mm-hmm. And the reason I'm doing this is this is how you move up the brain regulation, low down on the brain, move up the brain so somebody can relate to you, and then finally get to the cortex and reason with them. And the three ingredients I'm sharing with you, those operationalize that it turns into action. First ingredient, empathy. Let me regulate you. Second ingredient, let me ask you to relate to me by sharing my perspective, which makes you a helper, not a solver.
(01:10:30):
Third ingredient, let's problem solve. And if at any point in that process they get upset with you or shut down, just go right back to the bottom of the brain. The first ingredient. Let me reregulate you, let me remind you, here's what I heard from you. Okay. Let, got it. Um, regulate, relate, reason first ingredient, second ingredient, third ingredient. Okay.
Mel Robbins (01:10:48):
Incredible. And, and absolutely incredible.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:10:50):
And it's not easy. Let me be clear. Uh,
Mel Robbins (01:10:52):
Well, 'cause you gotta keep yourself regulated, which is a skill.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:10:56):
It is. Although, you know what the interesting thing is? A dysregulation is contagious. Right? Like, you're the person you're working with getting dysregulated or trying to help disregulates us. Right? I mean, there's nothing like being disrespected or things like that that disregulates us. But if you can just start that first ingredient, empathy, you regulate the person in front of you, you're gonna see what we call co-regulation happen. You're gonna start to regulate as well. We humans, we can dysregulate each other. We can also regulate each other.
Mel Robbins (01:11:25):
And I think that's a critical thing here is it's one thing to understand somebody, it's a completely different way to go through life and want to actually understand
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:11:34):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (01:11:35):
What somebody's going through and where they're coming from.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:11:37):
Yes. To be curious. I mean, you, you don't wanna make assumptions. Yeah. Be curious. And, you know, and there's so many places this matters. I mean, as parents right now, these days, I gotta say one of the biggest concerns we have is social media use and screen time for our kids.
Mel Robbins (01:11:52):
Hmm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:11:52):
There's so many battles that happen over that. This is tailor made for it. And it's a great example of
Mel Robbins (01:11:58):
Let's walk through that one. 'cause I think that's a huge concern. Yeah. I was talking to somebody who is actually very worried about their father.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:12:06):
Hmm.
Mel Robbins (01:12:06):
So he's our age and his father is now retired and and
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:12:11):
He's just scrolling on reels all day
Mel Robbins (01:12:13):
On I've iPad all day goes to bed with it.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:12:16):
Yep.
Mel Robbins (01:12:17):
And his mom is upset about it. I mean, there's a real addiction there.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:12:22):
Yep.
Mel Robbins (01:12:23):
And he's very concerned. He doesn't know how to address it. Yep. And so I think it's probably the same conversation whether you're talking to a 10-year-old or you're talking to an 80-year-old.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:12:31):
It's, it is, and it's just really hard because the algorithms of these things are meant to addict. Mm-hmm I mean, let's be clear that the, they are built to addict. So there's a very powerful force going on here, but it's still the same three step process. And what I find doing a lot of work with kids and adolescents around this is that, you know, what's interesting is kids share our concerns a lot of the time. So we don't actually need to come in barging in with our concerns and solutions if we listen first, what we'll hear from kids is they're worried about a lot of the same things. And if that's the case, it opens up the door to collaboration where you're now working together against these addictive algorithms. Right. As opposed to sort of, you know, working against one another. But it, it's all starts with listening. You know, people, um, we actually created a series for how to talk to your kids about social media.
Mel Robbins (01:13:22):
Well, we're gonna link to it in the, in the notes of this episode. 'cause I'm sure people are really interested in that.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:13:29):
I mean, it's the biggest parenting challenge of our generation, I think. Um, but the funny thing about it's, we call it how to talk to your kids about social media. It's not how to talk to your kids about social media. It's actually how to listen to your kids about social media. And it's exactly what we talked about before. Pick up, pick a specific instance.
Mel Robbins (01:13:48):
Mm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:13:49):
You know, maybe it's you pick your child up at school and they're glued to their phone when you're wanting to talk to them.
Mel Robbins (01:13:56):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:13:57):
Pick a specific instance. Okay. Decide which plan you're gonna use. If you're gonna try this collaborative problem solving, you're gonna start by getting their concern, their perspective, their point of view on the table.
Mel Robbins (01:14:06):
Right.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:14:06):
You'll express your concern, you'll collaborate.
Mel Robbins (01:14:10):
I'm, I'm so excited. Try this. I am curious what you're seeing in your work when it comes to young adults, because it seems at least, maybe it's just what my friends and I are talking about, but it seems like there's, it's everywhere. There's a tremendous amount of challenges with with parenting kids
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:14:29):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (01:14:29):
In their late teens and into their twenties.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:14:32):
Yes. You know, it's really interesting. I've noticed, I've typically worked with children, adolescents, occasional young adult. I work with more young adults now than I ever have. And there's a reason for that because in essence, young adults aren't looking like what young adults used to look like. And what I mean by that is, thanks to the pandemic, there's a gap between where we expect people to be at certain ages and skill level. Kids skills did not develop at the same rate despite heroic efforts from teachers, from parents.
Mel Robbins (01:15:08):
Mm-hmm
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:15:09):
Which is why like fifth graders now, when I work with schools, look a lot more like third graders. 12th graders look a lot more like 10th graders. And yes, 22 year olds look a lot more like 19, 20 year olds, things like that. So things that were already challenging, are more challenging. Um, adulting is harder than it used to be because a lot of the kids don't have the same skills.
Mel Robbins (01:15:31):
How do you think about this in terms of the challenging dynamics that you're seeing?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:15:35):
Yeah. Well, so basically, you know, I have a lot of families that are very frustrated because they're like, my kid is not launching here.
Mel Robbins (01:15:42):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:15:42):
And I'm supporting them. And this is unsustainable.
Mel Robbins (01:15:45):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:15:46):
Now, where do parents typically go with that? Um, work with a few. Right. Now where they go with that is, so here's the plan.
Mel Robbins (01:15:52):
Yep.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:15:53):
Here's what we are willing to do to support you. , have you been in my house, um, by x date, you must have at least a part-time job and contributing this amount by X date. You will have secured an apartment and have a full-time job to, and you know, at best what you get is Okay. Yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that sounds good. Yep. I'm good. Which, you know what I call that, I call that dissociative compliance, which means the kid is basically checked out saying exactly what they think you want to hear. Yeah. So that they can get this over with.
Mel Robbins (01:16:26):
Yep.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:16:26):
'cause their concerns aren't around the table.
Mel Robbins (01:16:28):
Got it.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:16:29):
So it's the same three step process. Unless you wanna do plan A or plan C, it needs to look like, 'cause that was plan A what I just said before,
Mel Robbins (01:16:37):
Which is you're doing this. Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:16:37):
It, it needs to look like, um, so let's talk about how things are going, what you think, uh, about how things are going, your perspective, your point of view, what you're looking for, your goals. I'll share some of my concerns and let's see if we can figure out a plan together, at least in the short term that's gonna work for the both of us.
Mel Robbins (01:16:55):
And what is your advice about the financial piece? Because I think it's a very tricky dynamic.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:17:02):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (01:17:03):
Because the fact is, you know, when I look at the city of Boston where we're sitting right now, I saw a statistic that housing prices have gone up 78% in three years here.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:17:12):
No, it's absurd.
Mel Robbins (01:17:13):
It's absurd. And you know, I think about when I was a young lawyer working at Legal Aid, my parents helped me paid rent. Right. I couldn't, I couldn't afford the rent and groceries.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:17:22):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (01:17:22):
But then you get into this dynamic
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:17:24):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (01:17:25):
Where you might be helping your kid.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:17:28):
Right.
Mel Robbins (01:17:28):
But then you see them going out and you see them buying things. Yes. And then you start to have opinions about how they're using their money. And I see it with so many of our friends. We've experienced this in our family
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:17:39):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (01:17:40):
Where you wanna help if you can.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:17:41):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (01:17:42):
And that in of itself is a wonderful place to be in and lot, which also
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:17:44):
Don't wanna be taken advantage of.
Mel Robbins (01:17:46):
No. And you also start to feel like I'm contributing to the quote, lack of motivation. Mm-hmm But if we go all the way back to the beginning, , where you said kids do well if they can.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:17:56):
Yeah. It's not a lack of motivation. What is it in the first place?
Mel Robbins (01:17:59):
It's a lack of skills to deal with the new world.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:18:01):
World. It's struggle with the skills needed to handle the new world, which is a very challenging world. So how do you handle the financial piece though? I always say, okay, share with me not your solutions to the financial piece, but what are you worried about your concerns? Because they are going to ma they're, they're gonna be different from family to family. One family is gonna say,
Mel Robbins (01:18:20):
My concern is you're gonna never get your act together and I'm gonna be paying for your ass the rest of your life.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:18:25):
So we might rephrase that
Mel Robbins (01:18:26):
Slightly. Okay. Slightly. , , is this not a safe place doc?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:18:31):
No, it is. And it's why usually when I prepare these conversations with parents, I let them tell me it that way first.
Mel Robbins (01:18:37):
Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:18:38):
And then I say, all right, so let's rephrase that a little bit. Well,
Mel Robbins (01:18:40):
How do we say, how do you say
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:18:41):
It? Well, well, but here's what I mean.
Mel Robbins (01:18:43):
Well, 'cause I'm worried, I'm worried about you finding your way. I'm worried about you being now I'm about to get upset. I'm worried about you being happy.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:18:50):
Okay?
Mel Robbins (01:18:50):
I'm worried about you like feeling successful.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:18:53):
Okay. But see, now we're actually getting to your real concern.
Mel Robbins (01:18:55):
Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:18:57):
Now, someone else, their real concern might be, we are going to run out of money very soon. And so I am worried about being able to put food on the table for us all.
Mel Robbins (01:19:06):
Yes.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:19:07):
Somebody else is, you know, the concerns are different. The key is really them being co-authors of the solutions. Your concerns are every bit as important. They're on the table, whether they're the financial concern and or the concern about, I'm worried you're not gonna be happy and feel good about yourself. Mm. And I want to help these 20 year olds who are living with their parents, who are really struggling it, that doesn't feel good to them. They wanna feel like I can provide for myself.
Mel Robbins (01:19:33):
Right?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:19:34):
I'm successful, I have a career, et cetera. But we need to help understand where they're coming from while simultaneously then sharing, okay, here's, here's our reality of what we're worried about and we gotta work together here.
Mel Robbins (01:19:48):
I love this. Thank you for also painting the landscape against which we're actually living right now. Yes. And understanding that it is very different than when we were in our twenties or our teens huge or our thirties. Huge. Like a completely different world that impacts you and the five skills that you've been talking about. And one of the things that I love about your work is that it feels as though following everything that you've taught us today gives you the ability to change the way things have always been in your family. And you know, I look at a lot of the incredible research that's been done around trauma and the kind of takeaways that people can only give you what they have to give people. Just repeat the things that are done to them.
(01:20:39):
And I wanted to share something with you because I found it to be so extraordinarily powerful. And it was an appearance that Des Bryant, who was a former NFL player, who played for eight seasons, uh, you know, for the Cowboys. He was on this podcast that I personally love, called The Pivot. And he had talked about how he had a really, uh, difficult upbringing. His mom was a teen mom, his dad wasn't around. And that he's really focused on trying to give his kids the support that he didn't get as a kid. And so he has this quote in his phone and he pulled it out on the podcast and read it and just, it was so emotional. And I wanna share it with you and just get your thoughts.
Des Bryant (01:21:25):
It say, uh, break, break generational curses. Quit yelling at your kids before they go to bed and inspect them. Sleep well. Quit yelling at your kids in the morning right after they wake up before school. Inspect them to have a good day. You set the tone for your children. Set the tone. You set the tone for your voice. That while always remember in their heads, you become the inner voice. Don't be the inner critic. Speak life, speak love, speak bravery, kindness and hope. Speak wisdom and truth. Most of all, listen to your children. I never had none of that. I get that to mine. And that's my number one priority. That's, I follow that, that's how I break it. And, um, you know, so I do
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:22:16):
It, I'll live it. I mean, he's describing right there what we talked about earlier. If you give a dog a name, they'll eventually they'll answer to it, right? Like, don't be that voice that becomes your child's inner voice. And, uh, I love how he's, you know, setting this sort of in this intention for himself, right? He is saying, this is who I want to be and how I want to be. What, when I hear that, one of the things that if I were, if I were sitting with him, one of, one of the things I would say to him is to get there fully. I think he's actually gonna probably need to forgive his parents. And the way to do that in my world is to remember parents do well if they can.
Mel Robbins (01:23:09):
Mm.
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:23:10):
And that the parent who wasn't there for you was probably doing the best they could to handle a very tricky situation with the skills they had. And my guess is a parent exposed to a lot of chronic stress and drama. And that's, I wanna be clear, that's not excusing behavior. You know, there's a big difference between excusing and explaining. And so you can still be really upset and really mad and hurt and traumatized, and at the same time realize that people do well if they can. And your mom was doing the best she could, and your dad was doing the best he could. And that's a way to forgive while still recognizing the impact. And then say to yourself, I'm gonna do the best I can with the skills I have to handle what my kids need from me. And if I feel like I'm not doing enough, I'm gonna work on building my skills. So, you know, they, that's, that's what this thing makes me think of when I when I hear him. And he's, his vulnerability there is amazing.
Mel Robbins (01:24:12):
Dr. Stewart Ablon, what are your parting words?
Dr. Stuart Ablon (01:24:16):
Um, I guess my parting words are, remember people do well if they can. It's about skill, not will. It's all about empathy, listening, and truly understanding. And if you do that, it'll open up all kinds of doors to collaboration, to repairing relationship, to building skills. And I guess the last thing I would add is, as we've been talking about in these last few minutes, try to extend the people do well if they can to yourself. You know, you show yourself some empathy to know that, you know, we're all doing the best we can at any given moment with what's coming our way and our skills. We can always do better 'cause skills can be built, but we're doing the best we can.
Mel Robbins (01:25:06):
Oh, I just love you. I just love you. I am so happy you're here. Thank you for sharing your work. Thank you for doing your work. Um, I'm excited 'cause I feel like I'm gonna be a better parent and a better spouse and a better colleague and a better human being because of you. I can't wait to have you back. And I know that, um, this is gonna be shared all around the world. And I really hope my wish for you, um, as you've been listening, is that you listen to this with the people that you care about. That's my hope. And, uh, one more thing, in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you. I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And you and I just got the roadmap to doing that with other people and with ourselves.
(01:25:57):
And I cannot wait to see what happens when you use it. Alrighty, I'll be waiting for you in the next episode. I'll see you there. And thank you for just watching all the way to the end for being here. I cannot wait to see what happens when you use Dr. Avalon's research in your life. Thank you in advance for sharing this with the people that you care about. This is the perfect video actually to watch with your family if you want to be closer to them. And one more thing, make sure you hit subscribe because it's a simple way that you can truly support me and my team, and it helps us bring you world renowned experts like Dr. Alon to our studios and to you for free. So thanks for supporting me. Thanks for supporting Dr. Alan's work and thanks for sharing this with the people that you care about. And I'm sure you're thinking, okay, Mel, what should I watch next? I want you to check out this video. You're gonna love it and I'm gonna be waiting for you in it as soon as you hit play.
Guests Appearing in this Episode
Dr. Stuart Ablon, PhD
Dr. Stuart Ablon is the Founder and Director of Think: Kids at Massachusetts General Hospital, and a clinical psychologist, professor at Harvard Medical School, and author specializing in Collaborative Problem Solving and improving relationships.
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Books
Whether as a parent, a boss, a romantic partner, or on your own journey toward personal growth, you know how hard it is to change problem behavior. Conventional methods like willpower, punishment, and strict discipline often backfire, creating a downward spiral of resentment and frustration, while the problem goes unsolved.
Presenting remarkable success stories and actionable insights, Changeable gives parents, educators, managers, and change-makers of all stripes a simple roadmap for helping people grow.
Resources
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- Think:Kids Massachusetts General Hospital: Collaborative Problem SolvingⓇ (CPS)
- Think:Kids Massachusetts General Hospital: Collaborative Problem Solving for Parents
- Think:Kids Massachusetts General Hospital: How to Talk to Your Children About Social Media
- Forbes: A Guide to Dealing With Difficult People
- Canadian Child Care Federation: Strategies for Dealing with Challenging Behaviours | CCCF
- New York-Presbyterian: How Social Media Use Affects Adolescent Brain Development
- Child Mind Institute: How Using Social Media Affects Teenagers
- The Washington Post: How does trauma spill from one generation to the next?
- Psychology Today: Dealing With Demanding, Dependent Adult Children
- Think:Kids Massachusetts General Hospital: The Benefits of Changing School Discipline
- Journal of Public Health: Improving personal, social, and life skills in adolescents: a scoping review of key components in interventions
- Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Empathy as a driver of prosocial behaviour: highly conserved neurobehavioural mechanisms across species
- Developmental Neuroscience: The Neurodevelopment of Empathy in Humans
- Annual Review of Psychology: Neuroscience of Self and Self-Regulation
- PLOS One: Effect of socioeconomic status on behavioral problems from preschool to early elementary school - A Japanese longitudinal study
- Nature: Impact of the Covid-19 pandemic on young people with and without pre-existing mental health problems
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