Before You Waste Time, Listen to This

Mel Robbins (00:21:43):

Holy smokes. You just described every person that's listening. It's crazy. It's crazy because I think we've all had that experience, and I will get a little bit later in our conversation. There's so many kind of foundational things I want to cover. I promise we will get to your recommendation for what the evening routine should look like, but I personally understand exactly what you're saying. You turn off, you shut the laptop down, you put your phone away, and there is that flooding of activity in your brain, and then it never fails. Calm yourself down by just scrolling back at your phone.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:22:14):

Absolutely. So I don't know if people are like this. I do this a lot where even if I watch TV before bed, I will turn off the TV and then I'll pull out my phone and then I'll even sometimes pull out my phone while I'm watching tv. And then it's like, well, hold on a second. What are we doing here? What's the point of this? Am I trying to enjoy this show? What's

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:33):

Happening? Well, Dr. K, what is happening? What is happening in that moment? Because I do feel like there are so many of us that don't want to turn over two hours a night or more just to mindlessly scrolling. And we were talking with Professor Adam Alter who was saying that we're going to spend 20 years of our life on our phone. And when we hear that and we go, we want to stop, but what's actually happening in your mind? Is this a sign that you're addicted?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:23:02):

Sure. So let's define a couple of terms. Okay? So the first is, what do we mean by addiction? So generally speaking, when we use the clinical term of addiction, we're talking about something that impairs your function. So when we say someone is an alcoholic, how do I know if I have a problem? Basically, if it is causing problems in your professional life, in your personal life, social life, mental health or physical health, that's when we really think about this is an addiction. So the challenge right now is that we absolutely have things that are addicting, which have not quite reached a threshold for many people of impairment to function. So everyone struggles with addiction to their phone, but they're not quite failing out of college, or they're not getting reprimanded at their job. They're able to have, and that's what we're starting to see is that technology is squeezing itself because if there's actually a really negative consequence, it's easier to stop. So there's all kinds of stuff that's going on. It's absolutely shaping our behavior and taking control away from us. And there are all kinds of innovations that are designed to do that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:24:05):

Like what?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:24:07):

So biometrics or face id? So if you look at this, this is really important to understand. So when I was in college, this was early two thousands, and I was studying, I would get distracted when I was reading a textbook and my distraction would last maybe two minutes. And then since I didn't have a phone at the time, that distraction only costs me two minutes, then my mind wanders away, and then it focuses back on the task at hand. Right now, if you get distracted, it will cost you an hour. So all you have to do is catch that impulse. If you just look at your phone and you have face ID enabled, boom. So when you have that impulse app, developers are reducing the barrier between impulse and action, and they know that once you look at one post, you're stuck for 45 minutes, you will scroll. So now what they're trying to do is figure out how, if this person has a single impulse, how can I get them to the first video? Because then we've got 'em hooked, the fish has taken the bait, they're on the line now. So that's where what we're seeing is that the price of an impulsive distraction is becoming way higher. So I think teenagers spend somewhere between four and six hours a day on their cell phone. It's crazy, right? And how do spend,

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:22):

I would think even more honestly.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:25:23):

Yeah, that's average. So how does that happen? It's because they hook you for a few minutes and then you lose an hour.

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:30):

And here's a question that I think would, it might sound dumb, but I really mean this. How do you know if you're addicted? And I say that because I can stand there as a parent, Dr. K, and look at my 25, 24 and 19-year-old, all of whom have their phones in their hands, all of whom are cranked down with their neck scrolling. And as I'm yelling, guys, get off your phone. I got my phone in my hand.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:25:57):

Absolutely. So in a weird way, I'd say it's the wrong question because I think we get caught up in whether we're addicted or not addicted. How do you know?

 

Mel Robbins (00:26:03):

What's the right question?

Mel Robbins (00:26:28):

No, I'm not happy. I feel like a fucking loser that I'm turning all that time over to some dumb ass app.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:26:35):

I don't care if you're addicted or not. The question is, do you want to change? Are you happy with your technology use? So we can answer the question. So if impairs function, so if it's interfering with something and fair enough, we'll talk about all those negative effects. So it is doing things like shortening our attention span. We're seeing a rise in the diagnosis of A DHD. We're also seeing a rise in the, not diagnosis, but subclinical A DHD manifestations. So a lot of people, even if they don't have a diagnosis, they identify with having a DHD. And why is that? It's because technology does the attentional work for you? This is where I know I'm going off on a tangent, but No, it's great. So when I'm reading a textbook, I have to force my mind to pay attention, which means that I'm actually strengthening this capability in the mind.

 

(00:27:22):

So the mind, whatever you stretch and whatever you exercise is what gets better. So if I spend a lot of time listening to music, my brain will actually do, neuroplasticity will get better at listening to music. So our brain requires, the more we practice focusing our attention, the better we will be at focusing. Now what happens is with things like short form content, we saw this a lot with short form content, they do all the hard work for you because if something doesn't hold your attention for 15 seconds, you scroll past it. So everyone is engineering content so that you are just like you're sitting and someone else is driving. You don't have to focus on your phone, you don't have to force yourself to focus. It does all the focusing for you. What started to happen with our attention is instead of taking the stairs, we're taking the elevator all the time. We are deconditioning our minds. And then it becomes harder to focus,

 

Mel Robbins (00:28:17):

Which is why you will stand in a grocery store line and instead of just enjoying a moment where you're not doing anything, you have to look at your phone

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:28:25):

Absolutely,

 

Mel Robbins (00:28:26): 

Because your brain is being programmed and conditioned to need attention, to need something, to need stimulation, and it's happening to you in real time. If you're sitting here and you're contemplating the question because you just said, don't ask if you're addicted, ask, am I satisfied and happy with the way that I'm using technology? That's the main question. And if the answer is no, I am not I giving too much time, I'm spending too much money. I do not want to feel beholden to this thing. 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:29:13):

Great question. So I think there's two approaches.

 

(00:29:16):

So a lot of people will say, just uninstall. Yep. Oftentimes people will have this experience where it's like, okay, I uninstalled YouTube and then I installed TikTok the next day. So people will just swap, swap out apps. So this is what I've sort of found is that there are underlying drivers of behavior and then there are kind of environmental things. So let's talk about the environmental things first. The first thing that I would recommend is that you don't use your cell phone for the first or any technology for the first hour when you wake up.

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:43):

Okay?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:29:44):

Now this is really important to understand. Okay? So what a lot of people don't realize is that you have a certain capacity for pleasure and behavioral reinforcement. When you wake up in the morning, you have only a certain number of units of pleasure and behavioral reinforcement.

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:59):

Got it. So if I have a cup of capacity for both pleasure and behavioral reinforcement, you're saying that when you wake up, that one cup is

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:30:11):

Already full. So our dopaminergic circuitry in the brain in this part called the nucleus accumbens, basically this is what gives us a sense of pleasure and also reinforces our behavior. So the problem with dopamine is we wake up in the morning and our dopaminergic stores are full. So what happens is we have a reserve of dopamine, and if you want something with delayed gratification and your dopamine stores are high, you can work a lot. But then when you get the payoff, since you have a bunch of dopamine, you get a strong dopamine release and then you feel really good. So the way that this works is I want Y all to think about this. Let's say I wake up first thing in the morning and then I work for four hours, and then what is the reward, subjective reward that I feel after four hours of work? It's really positive. Then if I use technology for four hours, it's kind of whatever. But if I use technology for the first four hours of the day and then I try to go and do work, you're not going to, you're not going. And even if you finish the same amount of work, you will not experience the same level of pleasure because your dopamine has literally been depleted. Got it. So the way that I kind of describe this is imagine that you have a lemon that is full of juice.

 

(00:31:22):

So at the very beginning when it's full of juice, a small squeeze gets you a lot of juice, but by the end you have to squeeze a lot to get very little juice. This is how dopamine is in our brain.

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:32):

So in other words, if you tap into technology and it invades your circuitry in your brain, it literally is squeezing most of the juice out of the lemon first thing in the morning, first thing in the morning. And then that means that it's also going to impact your ability to do the work or to focus or to feel joy and all those things that normally if you did those things first, you'd feel a sense of reward and joy for

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:31:58):

Yes. So technology is like a hard squeeze. So if we use it first thing in the morning, we squeeze the lemon really hard and we get all the juice out, and then you have nothing left to feel good about because all of your dopamine stores have been depleted.

 

Mel Robbins (00:32:13):

So is this also leading to this intense rise in what we are seeing and what so many experts have come on to talk about, which is this chronic feeling of being disconnected from yourself, this feeling of autopilot, this feeling of stress in your day-to-day life, that the fact that you are squeezing the juice from your brain first thing in the morning, it leaves you with no reserves.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:32:44):

So all of those things are true and each one has a separate neuroscientific mechanism. So let's do one at a time and I'm going to try to keep it concise. I think we can do that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:32:52):

Okay.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:32:53):

So first let's remember with the dopamine, the issue is that if you engage in a dopaminergic activity at the beginning of the day, you don't have as much dopamine to reinforce and feel pleasure for other activities. That's just how it works. So we're emptying our lemon at the very beginning. So then working on your resume or finishing your resume, there's nothing left, so you don't reinforce the behavior.

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:16):

Gotcha.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:33:16):

This is what gets people so confused about why they're not motivated, and even when they move in the right direction, their brain is not getting a positive reinforcement to repeat that behavior because the brain is empty. There's no pleasure left to feel, and that's what'll happen. If you are on technology for eight hours a day, you start working at 4:00 PM you won't feel exhilarated by 8:00 PM even if you do the same amount of work.

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:37):

Well, I think this happens even if you spend 10 to 15 minutes in the morning.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:33:41):

Yes. That's because technology is a vice of a squeeze. So you get a lot of juice, you empty your lemon very quickly with technology. Now let's talk about disconnection from the self. Yes. So this is fascinating. So if you look at disruptions in our sense of identity, what we know from studies on trauma is that when someone gets traumatized, there's this part of our brain called the corpus callosum, which connects our right hemisphere in our left hemisphere, and people who get traumatized will dissociate so they will feel disconnected to themselves.

 

(00:34:14):

What we know is that dissociation happens in part because there is a decreased connection between the right and left hemisphere. So our left brain is logical, our right brain is emotional. That's somewhat true actually. And so what happens is we divorce our emotion from our logic. So when someone is being let's say abused or something like that, they will feel emotionally numb through the whole experience. That is a defensive mechanism. So the emotions are overwhelming. So we're dispassionately, this negative thing is happening, I don't feel anything. So they feel numb. So anytime you numb your emotions, your sense of identity goes with it. So this is what's really interesting is you can look at studies of people who have gender identity difficulties and even autism spectrum. And it's been hypothesized that one of the reasons why people on the autism spectrum are much more likely to be non-binary is because they actually have less emotional connection to themselves. So our sense of self is formed by emotional experiences. So if I ask you, Mel, who are you? What would you say? God, I don't know. Tell me

 

Mel Robbins (00:35:18):

About yourself. Well, geez, you're so smart. I'm embarrassed to get the wrong answer. Tell me about myself. No, I'm a 56-year-old married woman with three adult kids. My favorite thing in the world to do is to empower and inspire people. I love learning. I'm super positive person. I'm curious about how to squeeze the most juice from my life.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:35:49):

Great. So we can pause right there. So what I want you to pay attention to, and everyone who's listening is the statements that you made are about your emotional experience. So you mentioned that you're married, sure is demographic, but I would venture that your marriage is a strong emotional part of your life.

 

Mel Robbins (00:36:03):

Oh, my relationship with Chris is the most important thing

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:36:06):

In my life. And then you talk about curiosity, you talk about love. If we go further, we'll hear about trials and tribulations. So if you literally look at the way that your sense of identity is built, it's a string of emotional experiences. My story is failing out of college addiction, going to India, rising in some ways to the top of my field. These are all emotional experiences, our sense of identity. Literally if you ask people who are you, it's our emotional moments that matter that when I went through that divorce that made me who I am when I survived cancer, that made me who I am. When I ordered chicken salad for the seventh day in the row, that didn't make me who I am. There's no emotion with

 

Mel Robbins (00:36:44):

It. Yes, I get this. And so basically you see as a psychiatrist and an expert in gaming addiction and that since tech and social media makes us numb, that is an experience lacking this emotional connection, which is you need, which is what you need for a sense of identity.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:37:05):

Absolutely. When I work with these gamers who I'm 26, what have you been doing with your life? Well, since I was 18, I've been sitting at home playing in video games. There's one element of emotion to that, which is I'm a loser. So that becomes their identity because they have no span of emotional experiences because the technology is literally numbing them out. And so once you don't have that emotional experience, think about it. When your life is a haze of technology use, you don't become a person.

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:34): 

I think that's what most people are, honestly. You wake up, you sleep with your phone, you look at your phone, you commute with your phone, you sit down at work, you're on zoom, you're on email, you're constantly staring at a screen. You look at your phone when you leave, you sit at a table with your family, and half the people I see in restaurants are staring at their phones. Instead of talking to the people that are sitting there with them, you're sitting down in front of the tv, you're looking at a screen, you're also looking at your phone. You go to bed with your phone. 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:38:13):

Yes. So let's understand that you mentioned autopilot and identity. So now this is where autopilot comes in. So once I'm not connected with myself, what prompts my behavior? What prompts my motivation? More numbing the same thing. You're just sort of on this. Absolutely. That's why people become

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:33):

Autopilot. Why do we become auto? Because there's

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:38:35):

No signals.

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:36):

Oh my God, I just got something. And then on top of it, because you need some level of force or some action to be able to take a different type of action, put the phone down, get outside, and go for a walk because you have allowed technology to invade your brain and squeeze all the dopamine juice out of your brain. You don't actually have that will within you.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:38:58):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:58):

To take the action.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:38:59):

Perfect. So what happens is we numb ourselves to our identity and what is it that prompts us to do something with our lives? It is our sense of identity. I want to be a doctor. I want to be a good person. I want to empower other people. I want this right? So we lose connection with our internal self. So then what happens is normally what happens in a healthy identity is I have internal drivers and that gets balanced with the outside world. The world expects this of me, this is what I want do. There's a healthy conflict there. Now what's going on is we are numbing ourselves to the internal. There is no internal anymore, which means we become autopilot. What does autopilot mean? This means that my actions, my behaviors, my desires, my goals are actually being conditioned in my mind. I watch this kind of social media.

 

(00:39:45):

I think I need a thigh gap. I watch this kind of thing. I need to get this kind of thing. I need to have a side hustle. 

Mel Robbins (00:40:18):

I love you. I can feel the person listening right now, literally either sitting in their car or they've put the dishes down that they've loaded or they've stepped off the treadmill at the gym and they're like, I don't want to do this to myself anymore. So Dr. K, now that we sort of see the implication and the fact that technology is moving faster than our brains can catch up, and it is now designed to put you in this state, because when you are in this state and you're on your phone all the time, other people are making money off of that attention. The longer that you stay on your phone, the more money people make. And when you understand this, you now have a choice about how you're going to use technology instead of being used by it. Absolutely. And I want to get into a couple tactical things. So you just gave us all a massive wake up call.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:41:23):

So I'd say there's short, medium, and long-term interventions.

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:41:31):

Right now. So the first thing is that remove all of the things that make it easy for you to access your phone.

 

Mel Robbins (00:41:37):

Like what?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:41:37):

So remove face, ID, remove biometrics. You have to use your little login, whatever every single time. Make it hard for you to access. So what we want to do is increase the time between an impulse to use your phone and access to your phone. So practically, what I'll also tell people is don't carry your phone around. I know it sounds crazy, but when I go home, I set it in a different room. I don't keep it near me. Same. So create

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:03):

Space. Okay?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:42:04):

Second thing is no access to addicting apps on your home screen. You got to fucking go to the app section of your app, open up your whole panel of 800 apps and find it that way. Reduce access.

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:15):

Okay?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:42:16):

So if you reduce access, there's a chance you can ride out the impulse. And what basically happens is the see, anytime we give our brain instant gratification, it reinforces the behavior more. So you want to make it difficult for you to access. If you want to uninstall apps, go for it. So this is even stuff like you could save your logins in a browser, but don't have the native app. So if you really need to use the thing, use the web app and it's going to be annoying and frustrating. Yes. That's the point. So make it hard to access.

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:44):

And by the way, I want you to consider that it's not just you're making it hard for you to access it. I want you to really absorb what Dr. K is saying. You want to make it hard for all of the social media apps to access you.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:43:01):

Well said, brilliant. I knew you were going there. And that's exactly it. So what we want to do is see, these apps are not designed to have you have a healthy relationship with them. They're designed to increase your unhealthy relationship with them. So whatever game they want to play, we want to try to tug of war in the opposite direction. So first thing is remove your impulsive access to whatever the stuff is. So this is also where I won't keep a lot of stuff on my phone. I'll keep it logged into my desktop. I like

 

Mel Robbins (00:43:30):

That idea a lot.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:43:31):

So here's another thing that I think will really get people insane. So I try to work minimally on my phone and try to almost never work on my phone at all. So there's a huge problem where everyone's like, okay, we're checking email on our phone. We're doing this, we're doing this. The problem is once you're in your phone, how many times do you just do work and don't do anything else?

 

Mel Robbins (00:43:51):

Never.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:43:52):

So this creates a problem because now you have a good reason to be on your phone, but the good reason then turns into bad reason because it's easy to switch from your email to something like TikTok. So easy. So that's where work is for work and fun is for fun. And separate those two things.

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:09):

Great.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:44:09):

Now, a lot of people will push back and they'll say, but I need my phone for work.

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:12):

I'm in real estate. I'm in this, I'm in that. I'm the

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:44:14):

Other thing. So if you need it, need it, then that's a different story. But oftentimes it is convenient is different. You can sit your ass at your computer and check your email four times a day and you could probably be okay there. You don't need

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:25):

It. Well, here's another thing you could do. If you truly have a job that you are tethered to phone because people need to text you, email you, and call you, great. Have a work phone and don't have any social media

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:44:36):

Apps on it. Yes, your spouse may be paranoid because now you've got two phones, but that's a separate bridge that we can get to.

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:42):

Just don't put a password on it. Yeah,

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:44:43):

Fair

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:44):

Enough. Then they can look at anytime they want.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:44:46):

So I think that's great having a second phone. So we want to reduce our impulsive access to technology. That's kind of short term. Medium term is some of these other things like we want to be super careful about using it an hour after we wake up and an hour before bed.

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:45:20):

What I would recommend is for the first hour, just no technology. So this starts with even things like an alarm where, so I'll sometimes set an alarm, but I tend to find that my biological clock, and this comes with meditation, you just wake up when you tell your mind when to wake up and it can wake up. But if you have to start with an alarm, that's fine. So one thing I would say is keep your phone at distance from you

 

(00:45:42):

And then do the thing. Have a lot of stuff to do that we never get around to. Just do all that stuff. Take out the trash, just wake up, make your cup of coffee, and then do whatever else you need to do. So I'll meditate in the morning, for example, for about 21 minutes. So I'll do all of that kind of stuff and then I'll shower and I'll get ready and an hour gets eaten up very quickly. You'll also find that your day starts way better, right? Because you don't waste that 28 minutes and then 12 minutes on the toilet and then five minutes here. So just start off trying to avoid using your phone.

 

Mel Robbins (00:46:15):

So neurologically speaking, or from a mental or from a mindset standpoint, Dr. K, what will you likely experience if you take control of the first hour of your day and you do not let technology consume and enter your mind?

Mel Robbins (00:46:58):

Withdrawal.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:46:59):

Yeah. And do you know what that withdrawal feels like?

 

Mel Robbins (00:47:01):

No, thank God.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:47:02):

So it is pain. I don't wish that on anybody. So we get hypersensitivity of our nociceptors, which is our pain receptors. So our brain and our body punish us. They say, Hey, we need this stuff. I'm going to punish you as a signal to give me what I want. This is true of opiates. This is also true of calories and hydration. Hunger and thirst are negative experiences that are used to drive behavior. So our body punishes us all the time if we are not doing good things. Now, the problem is that this gets hijacked by things like Twinkies, where the hunger signal was evolved when we didn't have Twinkies, when we had roots and tubers that we had to eat. And in the same way, boredom has all kinds of healthy reasons why we have it, but now it's gotten hijacked by technology. So when our brain is craving dopamine, it will make you feel bored. And your antidote to boredom is to give it what it needs. It's like it's jonesing for this, right? It's kind of crazy. So we have to understand that boredom is not like something to be avoided. Boredom is your brain's way of taking control of you, because then, oh, I'm bored. So what do you,

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:13):

You reach for your phone?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:48:14):

Absolutely, right? And then the brain is satisfied. It's like, yeah, thanks for giving me a hit of this. By the way, dumb ass, you only did this for 15 minutes and now you have this thought. Oh, I have stuff to do. So you close the phone and then your brain is like, Uhuh, I'm bored. I don't want to do that. Pull out the phone again. The main thing that you have to tolerate is boredom. You don't have to conquer it. You just have to tolerate it. Because eventually, if you don't give into the thing that that signal will subside, our brain has this principle of homeostasis where it never sends us signals forever. So even if you're hungry, you missed lunch, you feel hungry for a while, and then your brain acclimatizes to the signal, you stop feeling hungry for an hour or two, and then the brain reminds you again. Same thing will happen.

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:57):

It's true.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:48:58):

So what we want to do with technology, we don't need to conquer anything. We need endurance. We need actually to lean into inaction. We don't have to be positive, we don't have to be motivated. We don't have to work on our resume. All we need to do is endurance. Just tolerate the negativity, tolerate the boredom. That's going to be your main enemy.

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:14):

Okay, great. So put the phone out of reach, fill the first hour with all the kinds of things you can't get to. It'll go super fast. You'll notice a boost in your mood. You'll notice that you've,

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:49:29):

What

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:29):

Are you going to notice?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:49:29):

No, you're going to suffer.

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:31):

You're going to suffer.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:49:32):

Yes. At the beginning you'll suffer. So I'll give you just a great example. So if you're listening to this right now, no cell phones in the bathroom. This is the most terrifying thing for most of the people in our

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:42):

Case. This is where I put it to charge at night. So I'll put it in my closet now. No cell phones in the bathroom. Why?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:49:47):

Just none in the bathroom? Because what do you need your cell phone in the bathroom for?

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:50):

I don't know.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:49:51):

It's the alleviation of boredom, right? That's true. And it's like, do you really need stimulation for the five minutes that you're taking a dump in the morning? Can you not live without five minutes of, I dunno, looking at cat videos, just like, take your dump. Just take your dump and just leave it outside. And if you can't, you need to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror and be like, this is insane. I can't take a dump without using my phone.

 

Mel Robbins (00:50:20):

That would be a sign that you got a problem and you need to get control of your relationship with technology.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:50:24):

Absolutely. Absolutely right? Because there's nothing to lose, right? It's not like that's a productive time. Everyone thinks these things, it's very

 

Mel Robbins (00:50:30):

Productive. I dunno what's happening in your bells, but it's very productive.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:50:33):

There's all kinds of, yeah, right? So we just let it go automatically and we stay there for,

 

Mel Robbins (00:50:37):

But I get your point, which is I have, I have a habit here. When I'm at work, I leave my phone on my desk. It's not on my person.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:50:45):

Very good

 

Mel Robbins (00:50:46):

Ever. And I've noticed my tolerance for being away from my phone is pretty big because I exercise this all the time. I don't sleep with it next to me. So that way I don't reach for it. I don't have it on my person. The second that I'm done with work for the day and I'm down cooking in the kitchen.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:51:07):

So at the beginning it will be tough. Well said. So then something beautiful happens. So if I am craving Twinkies and I don't eat Twinkies, then my body will eventually be satisfied with a salad. Does that make sense?

 

Mel Robbins (00:51:20):

It does, because I used to eat at McDonald's every day in high school. I fricking loved it. I loved their shakes. I love dipping the fries in the chocolate shakes. I love the Big Mac. And then I don't know what happened. Oh, wasn't a McDonald's where I went to college. And so I didn't have it. And then I stopped craving it. And I can't even think of why I would pull into a drive-through. It doesn't even occur to me.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:51:42): 

So now we to phase two, which is once you tolerate the boredom for a while, 

Mel Robbins (00:51:52):

Shower. Yes.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:51:53):

And the question is why? The only reason is because this is the time where you are with yourself. It's the one last bastion that is protected from technology because water is damaging to technology. So it's the only time we're with ourselves. And when we are with ourselves, remember that the problem with technology is it numbs us out to ourselves. The other mechanism it uses is it literally externalizes my attention. So what my mind is thinking about is what I see, what I hear instead of what I feel. Oh, out

 

Mel Robbins (00:52:20):

There,

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:52:21):

Yes. Am outside of us, which

 

Mel Robbins (00:52:22):

Is why the FOMO and the constant comparison is so amplified. It's terrible because technology has trained you to have an external focus. And if you're never allowing yourself to be alone with your own thoughts, alone, with your own feelings, moments of boredom, idleness, stillness to allow your mind to wander, to feel connected to yourself, of course you're going to think all the answers are out there.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:52:50): 

Absolutely right. So we have a huge problem of externalizing our attention. So if I take a human being and I stick 'em on an island for a day and I'm just like, there's food and stuff, they'll be okay. You can experience your life on a given day, and most people's lives are not that bad, thankfully. I mean, maybe they can be. But the moment that you externalize your attention, you are not paying attention to the positive and negative signals in here, then you lose touch with yourself. 

Mel Robbins (00:53:29):

What do you mean? Like walk around?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:53:29):

Yes. So I do this all the time where when I take a break, I will pace, I will go for walks. And then what you'll notice is that there is this flooding of mental activity. But if you do that throughout the day, that's your brain like processing.

 

Mel Robbins (00:53:40):

So I actually dare you as you're listening to Dr. K to do this today. I dare you to put your phone in your kitchen or in your car or somewhere off your person, and I dare you to simply literally either pace around or even better go for a walk for 10 minutes and you will notice the flooding of the brain.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:54:00):

And yes. So there's all kinds of suppressed stuff that will come up. Yeah, it's not going to be productive at the beginning, but then over time you will notice that your mind will settle down and you will feel calmer. So when we give our brain idle time, it's like sorting through the mail. We have all this mail that's piled up that we haven't dealt with, and we keep pushing it away. Keep pushing it away, keep pushing it away. So your brain needs time for

 

Mel Robbins (00:54:23): 

It. Another question, 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:54:38):

Yeah. So I don't recommend screens an hour before bed as well. So I think that's good. And that's where we have to structure our environment to be keep the phone away from you. So I will keep my phone usually not within hand distance. You can. And that two people an hour can feel like a really long time. But I find that accompany if I don't let my phone accompany me, when I just do the things that I'm supposed to do, I'll even be on my computer. So sometimes I'll look at my schedule for the next day or things like that, but I try to use my computer a lot more than my phone.

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:12):

Well, there's a very different experience.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:55:13):

Yes.

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:14):

You're basically intaking versus

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:55:17):

Boundary. Your attention, there's a boundary. So we don't want our phone to invade the other corners of our life. We want to have technology be where it belongs and not have it be anywhere

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:27):

Else. If you are someone who is worried about a person in your life that is playing video games or is on social media, but your work really has focused on video games, how do you a know it's a problem? Especially if you have a kid or a partner whose social life is really about gaming and they're really good at it so they feel good about themselves when they're doing. So how do you know it's a problem? And two, how do you help the person other than sending them this episode to listen to?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:56:04):

So oftentimes we all struggle with technology, but oftentimes we'll have people in our lives who struggle more than we do, and we can really see the impact in their lives. And the challenge that a lot of people face that you may face is that when you try to do something about it, you get pushback. You can see it's a problem, but for whatever reason, their head is in the sand, they're in denial, whatever. 

Mel Robbins (00:57:02):

You're like my instinct, this is bothering me and I don't know what to do about

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:57:05):

It. Yes. So I would say for most parents, I'll tell them. I mean, even if they're not addicted, I don't think that that's important. The main thing is trust your instinct if you think it's a problem and it could get better. And that's the thing is I don't want to set a standard that is okay, your life isn't falling apart. There are so many people that I work with who have loved ones who are just kind of stuck in neutral.

 

Mel Robbins (00:57:25):

Yes,

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:57:25):

They go to their nine to five job, they're not really in really engaging relationships. They'll go to birthday parties and stuff. They kind of show up for life, but they don't live life. So I don't like this emphasis on impairment of function and it being addiction. For us to intervene, we should be living fulfilling lives. And if someone that you know is not living a fulfilling life, you should absolutely intervene.

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:57:59):

Listening. So we're going to give you a couple of opening lines that make assumptions. So the first thing is, Hey, I'm concerned about your technology use. So just own what you're concerned about. Second line is I'm sorry for judging you, and I recognize that I've been pushy without really understanding, and I'm going to take a step back. So acknowledge your concern. Oftentimes apologize because this is not the first time you're having this conversation where you've tried to explain to them, convince them, whatever. So you want to open them up to it. And if you open up by saying, Hey, I'm sorry for judging you or whatever, that goes a long way in terms of their cognitive flexibility and their willingness to listen. Third thing is, help me understand what you think about technology or whatever the thing is. So help me understand, can you just tell me about your social media use?

 

(00:58:46):

Can you tell me a little bit? Help me understand. So what we really want to do is start by, because if we don't say that first line, let's unpack a little bit. We don't say the first line. Oftentimes what people will do is they'll detect that I really have these views, and you're not really just asking an open-ended question. They're going to feel like you're trying to trap 'em. So you want to own that apology and own, I know I've been concerned in the past, I realize I've been pushing you, and that's not fair to you. I'm sorry for that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:59:14):

Thank you.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (00:59:14):

Help me understand

 

(00:59:16):

How do you see this? I see this and it's a problem to me, but anytime I talk to you about it doesn't seem to go well. So help me understand, well, how do you feel about it? And that's when sometimes they'll say, oh, it's not a problem, or something like that. And that's where we also want to use this second technique and we lay these out. There's a ton of sample dialogue and how to raise a healthy gamer, which by the way has been useful for not people who are parents, but just anyone who wants to have a conversation with someone about changing their behavior. So we see a lot of benefit from spouses. So we have a lot of husbands who gain too much. I'm guilty of that. So there's a lot of really useful conversations. Even people have used the book for conversations with their parents. So it is just a really solid set of evidence-based conversational techniques.

 

(01:00:05):

And the next thing that we want to do is something called reflectively. Listen. So if we start with a question, but then I ask you, you say something and then I ask you another question. I ask you another question, it's going to feel like an interrogation. So we don't want to do that. You start with one question and then whatever they say, they say, oh, it's fine. I don't think it's a problem. What you actually want to do is repeat back to them what they said, meet them where they're at. And you could say, okay, that's totally fine. So I'm hearing you say that it's not a problem. So I guess the conversation is over, not

 

Mel Robbins (01:00:35):

Really. You say that.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:00:36):

Yeah, sure. And then what do they say?

 

Mel Robbins (01:00:40):

I don't know. I guess they would, well, I'm thinking about how I would use this with my daughters and TikTok.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:00:45):

Yeah.

 

Mel Robbins (01:00:46):

And I think if I were to say, what do you think about this? They'd probably say, I spend too much time on it.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:00:52):

Okay. Right. So a couple of things. One is if someone doesn't want to have the conversation, you can acknowledge that and exit the conversation. The first thing that it'll do is it'll confuse them. So instead of going into this pattern of right, and they're like, what just happened? I said, I didn't want to talk about it, and this person did not nag. This person did not push. Maybe this is different. So then you can say like, oh, so is it okay if I ask you more questions about it? Or do you want this conversation to be over and respect their space? And then if they say, I want it to be over, then I would say one last thing, which is, is it okay if I just think about it a little bit and bring it up with you again?

 

(01:01:28):

Now, if you're respecting their space, it's very hard to say. If you're saying, okay, I'm done talking, you want to be done, I'm done. Thank you for at least humoring me. Is it okay if I bring it up again? I've never heard a single person say, how dare you respect my boundaries? Yes. So we want to flip the way that we're approaching the conversation, really create space for them, and it works wonders because now they're confused. You've turned over a new leaf, which means through empathic emotional mirroring, it will prompt them to turn over a new leaf. I love this. The best way to get your spouse to say, I'm sorry, is to say I'm sorry first. No one wants to say I'm sorry first, but it's very easy to say Second. See, these are principles of human nature that we just ignore because we get so caught up with our egos. So you want to just say, Hey, is it okay if we talk a little bit more about it? I'd like to understand more. And then whatever they say back, just reflect it back.

 

Mel Robbins (01:02:21):

I am sitting here with my jaw on the floor because there were three major things that you said today that I will never forget that are going to change the way that I go about my day-to-day life. The first one is using that image of technology and the engineering and software development and app development as being invasive to your brain. And the fact that the addiction to technology that we are all struggling with right now is so different than any other addiction because it is activating so many different aspects of your brain, and it is intertwined with so much of your life. And that the 99% of us have to figure out how to have a different relationship with technology.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:03:11):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (01:03:12):

And so thinking about it that way, elevated how imperative this is because the fact is apps are not going anywhere. The software development and the sophistication of the way that apps and technology is designed to suck your attention from you is only going to increase. Which means having a reality check with yourself now and realizing that this isn't about you resisting them, it's about you controlling the access

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:03:47):

That

 

Mel Robbins (01:03:47):

Apps and that technology platforms have to you. And when you realize that you actually are in control when you see it that way, but you have to take this seriously in terms of the impact on the brain. And you also kind of highlighted boredom in a way that I think is super important because this little addiction and invasion in our minds takes over in a five second window of boredom.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:04:17):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (01:04:17):

You're standing in the elevator, you look at your phone, you feel the flood of activity in your brain. You look at your phone, and that's where you're going to battle this.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:04:25):

And there's so many downstream effects, right? Because right now the problem is five seconds of boredom costs you an hour. Imagine if you could invert that. You could get an hour back. Yeah, absolutely. And this is where everyone's like, oh, I don't have time for anything. You're like, oh, that's because we spend an average of four to six hours a day on our cell phone, right? Wow. We're literally losing the best hours of our day. You have to work, you have to sleep, you have to eat, you have to shower, hopefully, boop, whatever. And then it's all the other time that makes us who we are. That allows us to connect with ourselves. We're forgetting ourselves, we're losing ourselves to this thing because when I get disconnected from myself, there's no internal driver. So I become a blank slate for external things to fill in my values. I should be doing this. I should be doing this. I hear the word should so much nowadays. What about what you want should comes from the outside? It's about what society wants from you. And then we struggle to do the things that we should do. Why? Because you don't want to do 'em. Operate from in here. Then you'll have a ton of motivation.

 

Mel Robbins (01:05:28):

And you can't operate from in here when you've handed everything over to what's in your

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:05:33):

Hand, literally the content of your mind is based on what is outside of you. It is not about what is within you.

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:06:08):

The most important thing for them to do is nothing. So when it comes to technology, if you want to get control of your technology, what you need to learn how to do is nothing. Technology can only invade your life if you let it by acting, by picking up the phone, by taking it to the bathroom, by pulling it out in the elevator, do nothing. Get better at doing absolutely nothing pace. Sit, get bored. We have this great exercise we do in our community that is transformative for about half of the people who do it, which is stare at a blank wall for one hour, one hour, one hour. Absolutely. Oh my God. One hour. We spend four to six hours a day on our cell phone doing absolutely nothing. One hour. It's shocking. Everyone's like, oh my god, one hour. That's even the junior version. The senior version is take a flight without any entertainment, without anything to distract your mind. Just take a flight and be bored for six hours. Go for it.

 

Mel Robbins (01:07:05):

And what happens when somebody takes this invitation and just sits in a room and stares at a wall for an hour?

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:07:11):

So some people will have catharsis, like they'll get bored for the first 15 minutes. Their mind will start to think about things. They'll sometimes engage with their thoughts. Sometimes people start crying. There's just so much suppressed emotion that everything starts coming up. Some people are just bored for an hour and their mind wanders, and it's not that big of a cathartic journey. But even then, that's a win because now you've tolerated boredom for an hour. You are increasing your resistance to boredom. It is your resistance to boredom that will allow you to resist technology. Because what does technology offer you? It offers you an instant relief of boredom. What are

 

Mel Robbins (01:07:51):

Your parting words? Dr.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:07:53):

K? The only reason we're losing this war is because we haven't been fighting it. So a lot of people will look at this and think, oh my God, everything we're saying, it's going to get more invasive. Everything is getting worse, everything is getting worse. But we haven't been concertedly fighting it. I'm not talking about regulation and Congress and all that stuff is great. You should do that. But I'm a clinician, so my target is one person. And how do I help this person? And what I have found is once you start trying to fight this and you equip yourself with some knowledge of how it works, you will be amazed at how easy it is. Actually. It'll be difficult for a while, but then you will get good at it. The problem is that we've been fighting this war with our blindfolds on, we don't know how our brains work. We don't know how technology, we don't know how any of this stuff works. So there's a lot of hope, and we just need to start fighting it in relatively the right way. You don't have to do it perfect. And you'll be amazed at how much things can cascade in the right direction.

 

Mel Robbins (01:08:49):

I feel Dr. K, this might be one of the most important conversations we have had ever on the Mel Robbins podcast because it impacts absolutely every single human being, and you have so eloquently and visually painted the war we're actually fighting and why it matters. I cannot thank you enough for being

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:09:12):

Here, here. Thank you so much for having me. I mean, I think it's high praise coming from such a high impact podcast where you guys have so much impactful stuff.

 

Mel Robbins (01:09:20):

Well, this impacts absolutely. If you've got a phone in your hand, it is changing your brain, and it is time to take control of this relationship with technology. Thank you for teaching us how and why.

 

Dr. Alok Kanojia (01:09:33):

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

 

Mel Robbins (01:09:35):

You're welcome. And thank you for being here with us today. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to tell you that I love you. I believe in you, and this really matters. I do not want this to be an episode that you kind of watch and then you forget. This really will change the rest of your life. It'll change your brain. It'll change how meaningful your life could be if you struggle with putting yourself first. If you feel disconnected, this is actually the solution that you need to take first and take it seriously. Alrighty, I will talk to you in a few days. Didn't you fricking love Dr. K? I mean, holy cow. So I just am kind of in awe of what we just did, and I want to take a moment and thank you so much for your time and attention today.

 

(01:10:24):

And I also want to thank you for being here and choosing to watch us today. I mean, we just learned about how important your time and attention is. So thank you for giving that to me. It's a real honor. If you have not subscribed yet, hit subscribe right here. And if you love this conversation with the incredible Dr. K, you are going to heartbreaking, open, amazing, going to love, love, love. This episode that I did with Dr. Robert Waldinger, he talks about what makes for a good life and what he said might shock you. I cannot wait to see you there.