What Makes a Good Life? Lessons From the Longest Study on Happiness

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:26:43):

So the question is, what did life look like to you then? What was most important to you then?

 

Mel Robbins (00:26:52):

I felt like I had my whole life ahead of me, and I was building a life with Chris. And I guess what was important to me then was just him and making money. That was the focus. How am I paying my rent? I was a public defender working for legal aid in New York City, and it was very hard to pay my bills in New York City on $19,000 a year. And so I just was maniacally focused on making money and what is my next career move and how does Chris feel about me? And that was the focus in life.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:27:33):

Okay, perfect. Now, now, what's most important to you now as you look at your life?

 

Mel Robbins (00:27:40):

Oh boy. So much. I mean, if I had to boil it down, it would be relationships. It would be my relationship with Chris, the people I work with, our children, our friends family.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:27:53):

And do you feel like you have your whole life ahead of you?

 

Mel Robbins (00:27:55):

I do. I really do. I think one of the things that has happened for me is that there was a gripping when I was 26 years old, everything felt like life or death. And that might've been because I had no idea how much childhood trauma had impacted me. I was still profoundly struggling with anxiety. So I lived in a very fight or flight space, and I had not discovered the life-changing impact of really working on your inside life and settling your nervous system. And the way that I would put it is I was really obsessed with the curtains on the window, what things looked like, how expensive they were, how does it look compared to everybody? And I had no idea how to enjoy the view.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:28:50):

Yeah. Well, and that is exactly what happens to most of us as a species. We get more appreciative of the view. We get less worried about what the curtains look like, and...

Mel Robbins (00:29:12):

Because I was so obsessed with the stuff on the surface, the outside stuff, I'm using the curtains as a metaphor, but the car that you drive, the amount of money that you make, that friend group that you're in, how much you weigh, what you look like, where you're buying a house, all that stuff on the outside, that it fueled a lot of insecurity, and I didn't know what to do with it. And so when I think about where I'm at now, I am so focused on enjoying the view, and I really do believe that the best years of my life are ahead of me. That there are people that I will meet in the future that will be some of my most important relationships and friends that I haven't met yet.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:29:58):

Yes, yes. Now, one thing I want to say is that when you open this podcast, you reminded our listeners, we're all going to die. Life is going to end. And what we think happens, there's good research on this, is that as we get older though reality that life is short, that it's limited, rather than making us depressed, it actually makes us happier because what we do is we start savoring life. We start paying attention to what's really important, the curtains, the brand of my car, not so important as am I good to my family? Am I doing things that mean something to me in my life? And so what happens is we shed some of the things that when we put them next to the fact that life is short, they sort of fall away, that we realize they're just not that important.

 

Mel Robbins (00:30:56):

Dr. Waldinger, based on this study, what do we get wrong about happiness?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:31:02):

Well, we get wrong. All the things that the culture tells us will make us happy. The culture says if you buy this make of car, you're going to be happy. You're going to be cooler. If you serve this brand of pasta to your family, your family dinners are going to be blissful. That's the message of the pasta ad we see on tv. If you use this face cream, you're never going to get old. You're certainly never going to look old.

Mel Robbins (00:32:30):

Why do we go after all of this wealth and all of the stuff when I think deep down, we all kind of know it's not the answer, but we can't help ourselves from chasing it. You know what I mean?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:32:42):

Yeah. Well, because it looks like something we could get and then be done, that if I get there, then I'm going to be happy that billion dollars, when I reach that billion dollar mark, then I'm going to be happy. What turns out is that life isn't like that. When we say life is a journey, it can sound like a cliche, but it's not. Life is an ongoing process of change. What that means is we're never done. Our relationships are never done. Our happiness is never constant. We're going to move from being more happy to less happy, back to more happy. That's the truth of life. Even though what we wish for is a final resting place where it's never difficult again, that doesn't exist

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:29):

If you're constantly chasing things and you said, getting to that final place, I get that house on the beach. I get the money in the bank, I find the love of my life. All these things that we're chasing, chasing, chasing, because we think that we get there and we will have that exhale and we'll feel what we want to feel. How do you counsel people, especially based on what you've seen in this study to wrestle with that though?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:34:00):

Well, the first is to recognize it, to believe it. Most of us say, no, wait. There has to be a way. In fact, so I'm a zen master, I'm a roshi. And so people have said to me, well, you are finally at a place where you're always calm. You're always clear about life. And I say, no. Some mornings I wake up confused or sad, or I feel like I'm doing it all wrong. And they say, wait, no, not, it can't have those ups and downs. And I say, yes, me, everybody on the planet. So the first thing is to recognize it and then to say, okay, but there are ways that we can work with the challenges that are always coming our way. We can work with the ups and downs. There's a saying from John Cabot Zinn that I love. He said, you can't stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf. You can't stop the waves of challenge and unhappiness and anxiety and anger that come our way at times. But you can learn how to surf. You can learn how to work with them better.

 

Mel Robbins (00:35:10):

Dr. Waldinger, I am loving this so much because you are making me think about the deeper meaning of life. And here's what I want to do next. I really want to get into what do I do? What do I do? So don't go anywhere. Make sure you share this conversation with people that you love. Take a listen to our sponsors. Dr. Waldinger and I will be back after a short break, and we are going to dig into all of the steps, all of the actions, the simple things you're going to do to create a good life. Stay with us. Hey, it's your friend, Mel, and I'm so excited because I can finally tell you about a free gift that I've been working on just for you. It is a two-part video training called Make It Happen with Mel Robbins. It teaches you how you go from thinking about what you want to actually doing it and making it happen.

 

(00:35:59):

I'm doing this because I want to thank you. Thank you for being here with me on social media. Thank you for being a fan of the Mel Robbins podcast. You made us the fifth most followed podcast in the world last year. Wow. So I've poured my heart and soul into this free two-part video training just for you. As a thank you, I want to teach you how to apply everything that you're learning to make real results happen in your life. How do you jump in? Great question. Go to mel robbins.com/make it happen. Last year when I did a training, more than half a million of you took advantage of it. This year's training is even better. Again, go to mel robbins.com/make it happen. Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel. I'm so thrilled that you're still here with me and Dr. Waldinger. So Dr. Waldinger, can you give us more advice on exactly how we can implement this wisdom?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:36:51):

Well, by doing a lot of the things that science tells us makes us stronger. So for example, not being reactive when we can help it, when we can take a moment to stop and take a breath when we're feeling challenged. So when we're feeling anxious or angry or scared to just stop and be with it for a moment and say to ourselves, okay, what's happening now? What's causing it? What is my wisest way to deal with this challenge right now? So just stopping, taking a little mini time out, taking a breath is the first step. And then using what I call our wise mind to say, okay, what has worked well in the past? What hasn't worked well? So you get the email that makes you angry and you want to fire off an angry email in response, and you stop. You take a breath and you say, okay, what would be the wisest way to deal with this email that I want to get so mad about? Right? And sometimes I'm going to sleep on this. I'm going to wait till tomorrow morning and see how it looks to me tomorrow morning. Now, sometimes we don't have that time to step back, but most of the time we do, even if our partner says something that makes us furious, can we not rise to the bait? But can we stop and take a breath and say, I'm just going to take a moment here to hear what you said and think about how I can respond to you. Right.

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:28):

I wish we would've had this conversation two days ago because, no, I'm not kidding, because there's a text that sent that I sent in the heat of an anxiety wave, and now I am sitting here two days later, it's not been responded to by the other person. And I, of course am managing the wave of, oh my God, I wish I hadn't had sent that. Oh, how do I deal with this moment right now when I feel this regret that I didn't put myself in pause?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:39:02):

Okay, the first thing is you don't beat yourself up about it

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:06):

Too late.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:39:07):

You say, okay, what am I going to learn from this? So when we feel like we've made a mistake, failure is fine. The question is how do we learn from it? And I've done this, believe me, where I've fired off an angry response, and then I go, oh, no. But then, okay, how am I going to learn from it? The point is, don't beat yourself up. Step away from that when you can and say, okay, what am I going to learn here? And I have to learn it over and over again. It's not like it's one and done.

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:44):

Well, I'll tell you the fact that you're a zen master and you are still struggling with this. I literally am like, why on earth would you become a zen master if you still have to struggle with the same stuff that we all do?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:39:55):

Because part of what I teach is we all struggle with this. And part of the wisdom of zen is to say there is no final place. There's actually a saying in Zen, there is nothing to attain. And what we mean by that is there's no final place where we've got it all figured out, and that that's so important to know. Otherwise, we tend to follow people who tell us they've got it all figured out. Nobody's like that. There's nobody on the planet who alone can fix it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:40:28):

Well, I want to talk a little bit about money. 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:40:38):

It's complicated. So money matters. Money matters. What we find when we do research on this is that having our basic needs met is vital. So food security, think of the billions of people who are food insecure, people who don't know where they're going to sleep tonight, people who don't know if they can educate their children, if they can pay for their medication, having those basic financial needs met is essential. So there've been estimates in the research of you need to make at least $75,000 a year in the us, but whatever the amount is, and it's kind of arbitrary. It's really, can I get my basic needs met? And until that happens, we are significantly less happy. But then if I make 75 million a year, that's not going to make me a whole lot happier than having my basic financial needs met. That's important because if I set out to make myself happy by trying to make a lot of money, it's a fool's errand. It's not going to happen.

 

Mel Robbins (00:41:54):

It's hard though to really accept that. That's true. And I've been in situations in my life, both when I was at the beginning of my career as a public defender, not making money, not able to make the ends meet. I've been in a situation in my marriage where we couldn't pay our bills. We were just absurdly in debt, and there were liens on the house. And there is a level of acute and chronic stress and anxiety that you feel

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:42:27):

Absolutely

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:27):

When you cannot buy groceries or pay your rent.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:42:30):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:31):

And so when you're in that situation, I hear what you're saying, which is until you can get your basic needs met, accessing a deeper level of happiness is going to be really difficult, not thriving. You have legitimate stress and problems that are overtaking your body and your mind, and that's a very, very real thing. So money becomes a really important tool to be able to relieve stress and solve some of your problems. But if I'm listening closely, you're saying it's not the point of your life. Too many of us fall into this trap where we believe because of what we see on social media or what is celebrated in our culture, the new cars, the mansions, the jets, the all of it, that you start to think that it's the point of your life. And so we should think about money as a tool, not the point

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:43:35):

Exactly to think, well, what's the money for?

 

(00:43:39):

And when I answer that, is that likely to actually make me happy? So we can each do a little internal check. What are the times when I've been the happiest? Was it actually when I had that new car? Maybe for a few minutes, but was it actually when I had that wonderful time with my niece and we just spent an afternoon knocking around the city of Boston together? That was magical for me. So what I know when I check in with myself is that the times that I'm happiest are having experiences with people. I care about doing things I care about that they don't happen to be the things that money can buy. But if I were making $19,000 a year in New York City, darn right, money matters hugely. And you're absolutely right that it's a level of stress that prevents us from being happy until we have those needs met.

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:47):

That was a great question that you asked us to contemplate. And so I want to ask you as you're listening to just stop and think back on your life right now. And if you think about times where you are the happiest, what's interesting is I reflect on that question. It is 1000% when I am out doing something with other people, it is being, for me anyway, outside, we're hiking, we're sitting and watching the sunset. We are out working in the yard, we're exploring some new area, and it's with other people and these experiences. And so I suppose if you can even just switch your perspective and think about money as a tool to help create more of those connections and experiences with other people, you have a completely different lens on it.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:45:38):

Exactly. And they've actually studied this. They actually studied what makes us happier, paying for material things with our extra money or paying for experiences. And what they find is that paying for experiences, whether it's going to a national park, tickets to a basketball game, going to a museum, whatever it might be, that makes us happier and it makes us happier for longer than buying a physical object.

 

Mel Robbins (00:46:09):

Awesome. Awesome. So let's talk about comparison. 

There's a quote from Teddy Roosevelt that I love. He said, comparison is the thief of joy. And what we find when we study this is that people who compare themselves to other people more often, day to day, in a given day, you are less happy. And the people who don't compare themselves as much feel better about life and better about themselves.

 

Mel Robbins (00:46:48):

How the heck do we stop? Isn't it human nature to compare yourself to somebody else?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:46:53):

It is human nature, but there are situations that pull for comparison, and there are situations that don't.

 

Mel Robbins (00:46:58):

And by pull you mean it is triggering you to do it.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:47:02):

It makes us compare.

 

Mel Robbins (00:47:04):

Gotcha. Okay.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:47:04):

We almost can't help it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:47:06):

Yes.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:47:06):

Okay. So what polls for comparison? Doom? Scrolling through social media polls for comparison. When I look at other people's curated lives, other people's photos of beautiful meals or great vacations, and I compare it to my own mundane life of driving through traffic, I think I'm not living my best life. Everybody else has it figured out, right? So social media, if we consume it passively pulls for comparison. But what about gardening? Right? What about birdwatching? It doesn't really make us want to compare. It's just, oh my gosh, that's so amazing.

 

Mel Robbins (00:47:48):

What would you say though, to a 20-year-old that's listening to this? Because we have a huge range of listeners, and there's tons of families that share episodes back and forth, moms and dads sending to sons and daughters and vice versa. And so what would you say to the 20-year-old? Because the second that you said, birdwatching and gardening, which I'm going on an owl walking date with my husband, like a tour with a local thing in our community on Sunday. I love it and I can't wait. But if you had said birdwatching and gardening to me,

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:48:25):

Forget it

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:25):

When I was in my twenties, I'd be like, delete.

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:48:51):

And what I would say is make sure you're spending a lot of time in real life, a lot of time away from your phone, or at least with your phone in your pocket, never taking it out with people in activities that you love. So what are the activities that you love? Is it playing basketball? It could be just hanging out with your friends, doing nothing. I actually heard a story today on NPR about how video games can put some people into a state of flow where they're just in it, they're just doing the game, and they're not thinking about, they're not comparing themselves. They're just trying to get better at this game. Now, can it addict us? Yes, it can. But video games can be a break from this comparison on social media. So there are all kinds of ways to find those places in your life where you're just in an activity that you love, that you're engaged in.

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:56):

On that note, on video games, I think this is a really important experience to share, is that I think they're very different than your kid or your loved one scrolling on social media because the social media and the surfing is passive. And video game playing is very active. And I remember when our son started getting super into video games, my husband and I would be in the kitchen arguing. I was a big gamer when Atari came out and played video games all the time. And so I'm defending our son. He doesn't need to be outside. He loves it. He's really good at it. There's nothing wrong with gaming. I know you didn't game. And I remember having this huge epiphany once where I went to check in on him one afternoon and he had a headset on, and there were seven of his friends playing.

 

(00:50:45):

And he wasn't alone. He was not only in a state of flow doing something very active with his mind and solving problems and doing all this stuff, but he was talking to his friends as they were all playing this game together. And I say that because I think we often look at what's happening on the outside without realizing, oh, there may be something deeper here. And with video games, it doesn't surprise me that there's not only the state of flow, but a lot of people have found ways to stay very connected to other people by playing together.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:51:18):

And that's such an important point because we have these stereotypes, particularly of boys and young men that well, they're just kind of loners and they're on their video games and they're not making connections. But what you said is exactly right. Many young men will say, I'm with my friends and we're doing this thing. I mean, how is it different from playing basketball with your friends now there's a physical element, but still there's a connection element in basketball and in some video games that I suspect is pretty similar.

 

Mel Robbins (00:51:53):

When you look at the research from this 86 year long study, what did the participants say at the end of their life? What were their biggest regrets and what were the big lessons?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:52:06):

Okay. The biggest regrets, two categories. One was I wish I hadn't spent so much time at work. I wish I had spent more time with people. I cared about almost the number one regret. And then the other regret, and this came more from women than from men, was I wish I hadn't worried so much about what other people thought. And so those are the two big regrets. The things that people were proudest of were not their achievements, and many people had achieved a lot. It was people. I was a good mentor. I was a good partner. I was a good parent. I was a good boss. It was always about the relationships. Even among people who had won huge prizes or gotten big accolades, that's not what they named when they were looking back on their life.

 

Mel Robbins (00:53:09):

You said the biggest regret, particularly for women, was wasting so much of your life worrying about what other people think.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:53:17):

Yeah.

 

Mel Robbins (00:53:18):

How do you stop doing that?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:53:20):

Well, it's realizing that first of all, most of that's not going to matter when we're dead, but what will matter? Am I treating people well? That will matter, and people will remember it even after we're gone. It's not what people think, but it's what I do. So one of the sayings I like a lot is 20 years from now, the only people who will remember whether you worked late are your children. And so if you think about it, so much of what we worry about is my boss going to like me? Are people going to think I'm a good this or that is not going to matter down the road, but whether I was a good ethical person, that's going to matter a lot. We matter, and our behavior matters, but it's not necessarily other people's opinions about whether my curtains were the right shade of blue on the windows.

 

Mel Robbins (00:54:20):

Yeah, you're missing the point.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:54:21):

Yeah.

 

Mel Robbins (00:54:22):

So you said at the very beginning that the single biggest takeaway from this 86 year long study on adult development at Harvard is that a good life is made from good relationships. So let's focus on what makes for good relationships. And let's start with what kind of relationships do you need in order to have a good life?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:54:48):

Yeah. Okay. So there's a kind of bedrock relationship type that everybody needs, which is who has my back? So we asked our study members at one point, who could you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or scared? And most people could list several people in their life. Some people couldn't list anybody, and some of those people were even married and they didn't list their spouse. So we think that everybody needs one person. In my world, we call it a secure attachment to another person where you feel like if I'm in trouble, that person would be there for me.

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:33):

We've talked about it on this podcast as your 4:00 AM friend.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:55:36):

Yeah.

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:37):

The person you can pick up the phone to at four o'clock in the morning, whether it's an emergency or you're just lonely and you need somebody to talk to.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:55:44):

Yeah.

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:45):

Why does secure attachment matter, and what is it? How does it relate to happiness?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:55:53):

Secure attachment refers to this idea that we all bond when we're babies. When we're tiny, we bond to caregivers. And that if the bonding goes well, we end up believing that we are lovable and that there's somebody there to love us. And that when we believe those things, we grow up happy and we grow up brave enough to explore the world because there's a home base we can come back to. So sometimes you'll see on a playground, you'll see a parent with a two-year-old and the two-year-old toddles off, and then at some point they'll run back and they will grab the parent's leg. It's sometimes called refueling where they're reminded, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

 

(00:56:38):

Yeah, yeah. Home base. And then they'll off again, and then they'll run back for that kind of momentary refueling. We think that that's something we need all the way through life.

Mel Robbins (00:57:12):

I feel like that's the whole purpose of this podcast for the person listening, that it is a refueling, that it's a place you can come back to like a home base and hear somebody who really means it. Say, you got this. Yes, you can.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:57:28):

You can. Exactly.

 

Mel Robbins (00:57:30):

Well, Dr. Waldinger, I mean talking about relationships and connecting with people, I already have a dozen people that I'm going to share this conversation with. And so let's take a quick pause your word from our amazing sponsors because they allow us to bring this to you at zero cost. And while you're listening to our sponsors, take a minute and share this with somebody that you love, because as you're learning, relationships are what create a good life. And Dr. Waldinger and I will be waiting for you after a short break. Stay with us. Hey, it's Mel. And you know what? I want you to stop thinking about what you want and watching videos on YouTube and actually go out into your life and do something about it because action is the answer. And the first action you should take is jump into my brand new free training.

 

(00:58:16):

It's called Make It Happen. This training gives you the tools to go from thinking to doing. It's packed with science. It comes with a free workbook, and it's exactly what you need right now. More than half a million people are taking it. And the fact is, you do have the power to change your life, and I want to help you. All you have to do is click in the link in the caption or go to mel robbins.com/make it happen. It's free. You jump right in. I'm going to be your coach. I created it for you. Why wouldn't you take this opportunity to make your life better? Go do it. Do not miss out on the life you could be living. Let's make it happen together. Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for sharing this conversation with the people that you love.

 

(00:59:02):

I know it's going to make a huge difference, and we're learning incredible insights from the 86 year long Harvard Adult Development Study. We're here with Dr. Robert Waldinger, who is breaking down the amazing insights from this research study and helping us live a good life. One of the findings of the study is that your relationships not only create a good life, but they actually make you healthier. They make you live longer. And so can you talk a little bit about how the connection that you feel with people in your life or even warm connections with strangers helps you manage stress?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (00:59:47):

Yes. I mean, there are bunch of ways it does that. One is it makes us feel we're not alone and feeling like we're not alone is vital. Feeling like someone will catch me if I fall right? Feeling like we belong. It's one of the reasons why feeling part of a group matters. It's why being excluded from a group is so painful. We need to feel like we belong to feel good about ourselves. So even the small interactions we have, when you go into the coffee shop and you have a nice exchange with the barista who makes you your latte, is that moment of connection where, yeah, how's your day going? And sometimes people will actually tell you how their day, they'll really tell you, not just on automatic pilot. And that helps us feel like we're with someone else and we belong and we're seen by someone else.

 

Mel Robbins (01:00:44):

Can you talk a little bit based on the research of why these small moments and these small conversations, even with a stranger throughout the week really are an important part of living a good life?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:01:01):

What we know is that those conversations with strangers, again, help us feel connected, help us feel affirmed. They did an experiment in Chicago where there are a lot of commuters on the Chicago Commuter rail system, and they assigned some people to do what they normally did on their commute, which is to look at their phones or read a book or whatever, listen to music. And the other people were assigned to talk to a stranger. And they ask people, how much do you think you're going to like this assignment? And the people who were told they had to talk to strangers thought they were not going to like it when they completed their assignment, they were all asked, how do you feel now? The people who talked to strangers were way happier than the people who just sat and did what they normally did on their commute. And it seems that the connections we make are energizing much more often than not that yes, sometimes we can get into a conversation we don't like, but more often than not, that's like, oh, it's nice. It's nice to say hello to you. It's nice to complain about the weather together, whatever it might be. It just makes me feel like I belong.

Mel Robbins (01:02:16):

This is something that I always done. I always said it was because I grew up in the Midwest, just very friendly. I just am always talking to people. I'm always saying hello to people. I'm the person that gets onto an elevator. We're staying at a hotel, and there was this big electrical conference there. And so we get into the elevator yesterday, it's probably seven 30 in the morning. It is full of, just imagine a group of seven electrical contractors. Okay, get that picture in your mind. They're all kind of standing there quiet. I'm like, Hey guys, what's up? And first silence,

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:02:50):

Who is this?

 

Mel Robbins (01:02:50):

And I'm like, how's the conference? And they're like, oh. Then one guy starts to talk and then all of a sudden like popcorn popping. Next thing as we're going down the 17 floors, we're chatting it up and I'm recommending the almond croissant at the bakery and the cafe. And so I love that. And I realize that it's not even about being extroverted because I'm really more of somebody I'm realizing who's more ambiverted. I'm extroverted at work, but then I'm literally a, I never leave my house kind of thing, but I am so energized by it.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:03:29):

Right. So how did you feel at the start of the elevator ride and then at the end, can you compare

 

Mel Robbins (01:03:35):

A thousand percent? I compare as I got out of my hotel room alone, and I'm checking my phone as I'm walking down the hallway, and then I'm turning right to walk down the other long hallway and I'm still on my phone and I'm thinking about my workday and I'm trapped in my head. And then I walk over to the elevator and then I hit the button and I'm so not present that I step on the first elevator that dings and it's going up not down. So then I go up alone in the elevator for another seven floors, and then the first contractor walks in and the second I looked at him and I said, good morning. And he smiled and said, good morning. I felt a little burst of energy. It was like I was immediately now in the moment

 

(01:04:21):

And not on my phone, I was now present with another human being staying at the same hotel, the door shut. And as we start to descend, I turn, I'm like, were you in the elevator with me yesterday morning? And he kind of laughed and he is like, I don't think so. And I'm like, well, you probably would've remembered it because I was yapping with everybody in the elevator, but there was somebody in there and then the doors open and now we're talking. And so then somebody else gets in and I say, good morning. And then the guy looks up good morning, and then we stand in and then the doors open again. And so as everybody then starts to get on,

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:04:56):

You were the greeter.

 

Mel Robbins (01:04:57):

Yes. But the energy in the elevator shifted. Nobody was on their phone and we didn't solve the world's problems. But even just getting off the elevator and then as I exit, have a great day, everybody and a couple of people, Hey, you kind of thing. I was present. I felt a little less alone. I felt a lift of life force energy from other people. It shifted my mood and it changed the day.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:05:35):

And what you've developed is a habit of doing that. And what is worth pointing out is that it's a habit we can develop that even though it's a little awkward at first, if you just keep doing it, it'll become second nature. But I had to develop the habit.

 

Mel Robbins (01:05:54):

And I think it's really important to note something that this is really important because you underestimate how big of a difference it makes in your life.

 

(01:06:06):

And I'd like to offer one other example of how you can do this. I know that for a lot of people striking up a conversation or making small talk feels either scary or trivial and it's not. And what I've noticed about making this a habit of creating what you and the research have found are warm connections and these small social day-to-day interactions is that I notice that I would rather feel the way that I felt when I got off the elevator this morning at the hotel having just chatted and saying Good morning to people in the elevator. I'd rather feel that tiny little buzz and lift in my mood than the way that I feel when I'm standing there lonely looking at my phone, waiting for time to pass. By that I have realized that I have a choice about the experience in my day-to-day life that I can create for myself. And so another way to do this is you probably go to a coffee shop most weeks and simply complimenting somebody either on their nails or the shirt they're wearing or how good the coffee looks. And then after doing that three or four days in a row saying, do you mind me asking what your first name is? I feel like I come in here every day. I see you. I don't even, I'd like to just, I'm Mel.

 

(01:07:37):

And then here's a pro tip. When you turn around after you say their name, write their name in your contacts, in the notes under the entry for the coffee shop. And as you pull in tomorrow morning, if you're like me, you will forget that Evan is the dude that is at the coffee shop at the hotel. I stay at all the time in Boston. I now know his name. He knows my order. Yeah. Because I use this and I refresh my memory the first couple times, so when I walk up I'm like, oh, it's Evan, right? Oh, I'm Mel. It's great to see you again. That small thing, as crazy as it sounds, it makes me less lonely.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:08:18):

Absolutely, absolutely. And it makes the other person feel seen. Evan feels like you see him, you're not just doing some transactional thing. It's like, I see you it. I'm glad we're here together.

 

Mel Robbins (01:08:32):

And here's the other piece. If I could take it to an even more profound level. Every one of us wants to create more meaning in life, and you want to feel like you have discovered this deeper sense of purpose. And I will go to my grave knowing that I feel that my life is more meaningful and I am experiencing it at a deeper level simply because of this one habit of forcing myself to create these warm, simple connections and conversations with strangers as I go about my day. It's almost like being tethered to a mooring that keeps you present in life, that keeps you able to ride the waves and locate a sense of energy and goodness as you go about your days, no matter where you are.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:09:33):

Yes. And one of the things I would add is that we can't always do it every time. So sometimes you're going to be in a bad mood or you're going to be really preoccupied with something and you're not going to be able to reach out to get outside of your own head and do just what you're describing. It's okay if we can't do it every time.

 

Mel Robbins (01:09:57):

Yes.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:09:57):

Do it when you can.

 

Mel Robbins (01:09:59):

Well, I find that sometimes those small things take less energy than trying to refuel with a deeper conversation from somebody else.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:10:07):

Yeah.

 

Mel Robbins (01:10:08):

Can you talk a little bit about what the study says about the importance of romantic relationships to your happiness and health and to living a good life?

Mel Robbins (01:12:00):

You make it sound so romantic.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:12:02):

Well, I know know, it's not so romantic, but it is really just the day to day that other people make us better by keeping us on track. It's somebody to get up for, it's somebody to get dressed for. That's one of the reasons we find that many times when one partner dies, the other partner doesn't live that long afterwards when we're very old because there's a way that living with another person helps us stay in the world and take care of ourselves.

 

Mel Robbins (01:12:36):

Is that kind of the same reason why pets are so good for your health?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:12:39):

Oh yeah. Pets are great. First of all. They get us up, they get us to walk, but also pets love us, especially dogs. Dogs are particularly emotionally attuned to their masters. Pets provide comfort in a way that again, literally lowers the fight or flight response. We can measure it when we're petting a dog. The body calms down.

 

Mel Robbins (01:13:05):

I want to go back to something that you said. You mentioned something about even just having a friend or two that you have a much deeper or an intimate connection with. Do you have two or three examples that might get somebody's mind thinking about things that they could plan or do or ways they could look at their friendships

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:13:24):

To

 

Mel Robbins (01:13:24):

Amplify them?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:13:25):

Yes, I do. Our lives are so busy and we're pulled in so many different directions, and what we find is that often we want to see people but we don't. So one of the things you can do is set up a regular contact with somebody. So let's say maybe there were just one or two or five people who you say, I got to have these people in my life regularly make it happen. I'll give you an example. My co-author for this book we wrote, the Good Life is Mark Schultz. He's been my collaborator for 30 plus years, but he's also my friend. So every Friday at noon, we get on the phone. He lives in Philly. He's not around Boston, so I might see him once a year in person, but for 30 plus years, we've had a phone call every Friday at noon. And yeah, we do talk about research and we talk about our writing together, but we talk about our kids and our marriages and we talk about everything. Now, one of us has to cancel If we're not going to meet Friday at noon, that means that it's going to happen by default. And that means it happens much more often than not. It's rare that we cancel a time. What if you had a friend like that...

Mel Robbins (01:15:02):

I want to tease that out. I think this is something that you could listen to and kind of nod along and be like, and so I want to make sure that you really understand what we're saying here because over and over and over again, living a good life is about the things that are right in front of you that you're not seeing.

 

(01:15:22):

And everybody's busy. And if this matters to you, what he's recommending is that you schedule it as a reoccurring appointment. It is already set up, the babysitter is locked in or your friend is on board. And so you've already done the hard part of moving from thinking about it to doing it. And the appointment itself is what keeps you connected. If you have it in the calendar, it's more likely to happen. There's something that I did that really helped me tremendously, which is I have a habit every morning where I send a text to a friend or a family member just saying, I was just thinking about you or sending a photo, or whatever else. And if I really do want to get together, I say, I would love to see you. Are you around next Thursday? Or I saw this photo come up on Facebook. I just say, I was thinking about you. And we underestimate how much it means to somebody else and making it a habit to do that first thing in the morning every morning has kind of fanned the embers of old relationships of people that are still friends. I just never see 'em. People that I went to college with, high school with people that I used to work with, you have many more people in your life than you realize, and these small habits actually help them contribute to creating a good life.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:16:48):

Absolutely. Mel, you are the poster child for what we call in the book social Fitness. These small actions like physical fitness, like something you do every day to keep yourself socially fit. And it can be small things like a text. It could be somebody with a long commute like you say, well, I can't add anything to my time. Well, if you have a hands free phone in your car, use your commute time to talk to somebody instead of listening to music or listening to the news, reach out to somebody. There are all kinds of ways you can add to your life without having to add so much time that you are more stressed.

 

Mel Robbins (01:17:31):

Did the study give you any guidance on what makes for a good friendship?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:17:36):

Yes. Several things. One is what we call authenticity. And all that means is I feel I can be myself with this person. I don't have to put on any kind of act. I don't have to hide big parts of who I am with this person. That sense of just being able to show up as yourself means a huge amount in terms of the comfort with which you can be together. The other thing that makes a good relationship is curiosity. So if you think about it, especially with long relationships, we think, well, I know this person. I know what they're going to say. I know how they're going to react. Bringing curiosity even to longstanding relationships can be so good. One of my meditation teachers actually taught me this first, he said, your job when you go sit down on your cushion now for the 1000th time as you meditate, is to ask yourself, what's here that I have never noticed before? So what if...

Mel Robbins (01:19:02):

What's interesting that I just thought about is that if you think about your own life and you go back to half the age that you are looking backwards, you realize how much you've grown, how much you've changed, how different of a person you are, and yet we don't give that same perspective to the people in our life. Your mom has gone through the exact same amount of growth, even though the habits on the outside look the same, your partner is a totally different human being, even though they look the same to you. Your friends have had so many things happen in their life that have changed who they are and what they care about. And yet you still show up and talk about the same old sports team and how are the kids, and there's something so much deeper going on

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:20:03):

To notice how somebody has changed can make someone feel so seen and understood.

 

Mel Robbins (01:20:09):

Do you have a good question? How would you advise us if you're sitting here listening to this and you're considering everything and you're thinking about the just treasure that is right in front of your face with the people that are already in your life, how do you lean in without sounding like some weird cheese ball that's just listened to a podcast episode and now you're like, so have you thought about how much you've changed in the last half decade? I'm curious, what's a way to broach this with somebody?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:20:43):

Yeah. Well, one thing we could do is notice change to say you're doing that differently than you used to. Tell me about that, or I've noticed this. Is that right? Do you think that this is more important to you than it used to be? Or just to notice and ask, have I got that right?

 

Mel Robbins (01:21:03):

I can think about a time when my brother-in-law turned to me and he said, you're really different than you used to be. And I just wanted to acknowledge just how much work you've done and how fun you are to be around. Of course, I immediately went to make myself wrong. Like, wow, I must've been a real bitch before. But it was, I remember feeling very touched by that. And so I think that's a wonderful suggestion to say to somebody, I've noticed that you're a lot calmer or that you seem happier or that something's off, you don't seem like yourself,

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:21:46):

Or that you're spending more time on this, you're spending less time on that, or you seem less worried about this, just anything. Because partly it's saying, I notice you. I don't just take you for granted. I think about you and how you are. I love that I'm stealing

 

Mel Robbins (01:22:03):

That. I love that.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:22:04):

Take it.

 

Mel Robbins (01:22:04):

I am. I'm grabbing all this and I'm going to run back into my life. What if the person listening to this is really introverted and the idea of these conversations just out and about in your life, make their skin crawl, and they're like, I don't want a lot of people in my life.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:22:24):

That is perfectly fine. That many people are introverted. We're all somewhere on that spectrum between introversion and extroversion, and there's no normal, there's no better or worse. Let introverts are just great and just fine as they are. So then the question is, how many people do I need in my life? And for me, if I'm an introvert, having a lot of people in my life would be stressful. It would be one of those stressors in my life. So instead, focus on the one or two people who you want to invest in and who help you feel good in your life. Don't worry about the fact that there are other people out there who are party animals and getting their energy from lots of people.

 

Mel Robbins (01:23:11):

What does the study say about raising kids? What's important to focus on?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:23:16):

Wow. Probably the most important thing about raising kids is providing them with stability and love. So one of the things we know from all the child development research that's been done, I mean thousands of studies, billions of dollars in child development, it all boils down to what one scientist said. He said, every child needs a stable relationship with one adult who's crazy about them. And so if

 

Mel Robbins (01:23:53):

You not crazy,

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:23:54):

Not an adult is crazy. Who just loves them? Who just loves them? And that doesn't mean affirms everything they do. It doesn't mean praise everything. It means you just love them and you're stable and you're there. They know they can count on you. So it's providing stability. And that can be very hard for some of us, for some families. And so even through divorce, for example, how do we divorce in a way that provides the most stability for the

 

Mel Robbins (01:24:24):

Kids? I dunno, how do you,

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:24:26):

Well, you fight as little as you can. You don't make war with your partner if you possibly can help it. But you let the kids know, we're both here for you. We both still love you, and you've got both of us. And that's not going to change even though we are not going to be together anymore. That's a huge message to give to kids.

 

Mel Robbins (01:24:47):

A lot of what you're talking about when it comes to living a good life, it's about the relationships that you cultivate and it's about the inner life and the way that your life feels. How do you teach kids those kind of emotional skills?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:25:08):

Yeah, we really can teach it. One of the things they know, for example, about family dinners, is there hugely important for teaching emotional skills? Kids listen to what we say, but what they really do is they watch what we do and we model stuff all the time. So at a family dinner or other places too. Are we respectful of each other? Do we really listen to each other or do we interrupt? Right? We used to play the interrupting game with our kids where everybody would start out with a certain number of m and ms, and if you interrupted, you had to put one m and m into the center pile and then you could earn it back if you didn't interrupt for a while at dinner. So we teach, not interrupt, and we teach listening. We teach respect for somebody's views rather than jumping in and saying, that's wrong. Or How can you believe that? 

Mel Robbins (01:26:31):

What role does forgiveness or acceptance play in creating a good relationship, particularly with family?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:26:40):

Yes. I mean the things we've been saying. So one habit is being curious about how they're changing right in front of you and then going with the flow. So if someone is changing, not opposing that, think of all the pain we cause each other by saying, no, no, you can't grow up to be an engineer. You have to be a doctor. Or you can't grow up to be a woodworker, you have to be a lawyer. However we decide someone else has to live their life. That is a recipe for pain and suffering.

 

Mel Robbins (01:27:16):

How come

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:27:17):

In families? Because each of us is who we are, right? Each of us is this unfolding being who has their own likes and dislikes, their own talents. And so if I think, oh, my child has to be like me, that's a recipe for a disaster. So what if we could really be curious about who is this being that I've brought into the world and how can I help this person express who they are in the world? That's a big factor in which families thrive

 

Mel Robbins (01:27:55):

When you look at couples and this innate desire that we have to either change or control them. And you just mentioned that one of the amazing things that you can do for someone is to step aside and not interrupt the flow of them changing. I was just curious, what do you think the balance is between the nudging get off the couch, we got to take a walk. You've been sitting at your desk all day and stepping in and trying to control somebody.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:28:32):

I'm going to quote a famous Zen teacher who told his monks, you're perfect just as you are and you could use a little improvement. So it's this kind of paradox that yes, we want to accept each other and we want to help each other be better. So it is a little of both. We don't want to just accept kids and let them do whatever they want because they'll be heathens. They won't learn to function in the world.

 

Mel Robbins (01:29:04):

They're also not adults yet.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:29:05):

They're not adults yet. They're not able to choose for themselves. We can't say to the toddler, sure, go out and play in the street if you want to. No, and you're right. We do want to say to our partner, come take a walk with me. We've spent enough time on the couch. The balance is trying to let someone be who they are, but to nudge them in the ways that we can to be healthier...

Mel Robbins (01:29:39):

Is there any strategy based on the research that works better than others? Because I think especially as you age and you see somebody's health decline and you want them to take better care of themselves, did anything emerge from this study that's like, obviously pressuring isn't going to work, but is there something that you can do in terms of how you show up that makes it more likely or triggers intrinsic motivation for somebody else to want to do that work to improve themselves?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:30:08):

Yeah. First of all, let people learn from life. Don't shield them from the consequences of what they choose. If somebody says, well, I don't really want to get a job. Okay, well, so how are you going to pay your rent? There are lots of things we can do to help people meet the challenges of life by not shielding them from the challenges of life that matters. This often happens in the realm of addiction with loved ones that we have to let people deal with the pain of losing a job, of losing a partner because they're not present, because they're addicted to some substance that we don't try to run in and make it all better. We let people when we can face the real world consequences of the choices they make and hopefully learn from them how we all learn.

 

Mel Robbins (01:31:07):

Beautiful. In chapter five, there was this really interesting statistic about the fact that we spend half the time thinking about something else rather than being in the present moment.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:31:19):

Yes.

 

Mel Robbins (01:31:20):

Can you talk a little bit about the importance of your attention?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:31:24):

Yes. Yes. So paying attention to just what's here now is something we don't normally do. Our minds carry us off into thinking about the future or thinking about the past. And in some ways that's helpful. To be able to anticipate the future is a good thing. It's one of the reasons why we survive so well and thinking about the past lets us learn from the past. So all that's good, but what we know is it doesn't make us as happy as being, as me paying attention right now to what it's like sitting here talking to you, what the chair feels like under me, what the air feels like on my skin, that all of that, when I can let myself be present for it, actually makes me feel more alive. So the practice of coming back into the present, that's part of what flow is.

 

(01:32:24):

Flow is just being present for what is. You don't have to sit on a meditation cushion to do this. You can take a walk in nature and you get outside of your thoughts about the past and present. You just look at, oh my gosh, that tree is so beautiful, and you're just right there in the moment, or you're right there with your friend. And so what we find when we study this is that when we are in the present moment, our mood is happier than when we're thinking about the past or thinking about the future.

 

Mel Robbins (01:32:56):

Can you help me and the listener just drop into the present? Can you show us how accessible it is?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:33:07):

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Just sit here for a moment, sit still, listen to my voice. Maybe close your eyes if it's comfortable. And now just feel your heartbeat. Wherever you feel it. Just feel that your heart is beating all the time. Most of the time we're not aware of it, but it's right there supporting us. And now take a moment to appreciate your breath going in and out, and take a moment to appreciate any sounds that are reaching your ears. That's it. That's the present moment. And so actually you can do that anywhere. You can do it in a busy waiting room, waiting for a doctor's appointment. You can do it sitting at a red light. Don't close your eyes with the red light in traffic, but you can look at that red light and notice, wow, I'm breathing, my heart's beating. You can do this at any moment. And dropping into the present moment just allows us to take a break from the swirl of automatic pilot of our automatic thoughts.

 

Mel Robbins (01:34:26):

How has this study impacted your life?

Mel Robbins (01:35:04):

They're

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:35:04):

Everything. And so what I've started doing is the stuff that I just recommended to all of you, which is I started texting my friends. I started making dinner dates, not just letting my wife make the dinner dates for our couple, the social director has been for years. I started saying to my friends, let's go take a walk. Let's go meet for coffee or a beer. And what I made myself do was pay more attention to my relationships and less attention to my work. Now, we could say, I'm lucky I'm older, I'm more senior in my career. I can do that. But what I would say is that even when we're younger and we're under all those pressures of making a living and making a career and supporting my family, that we can still make sure we keep in as our north star connections, including at work. You can do this at work, you can make more friends at work so that there are people you care more about showing up for each day.

 

Mel Robbins (01:36:09):

Well, between the age of 20 and 60, the people you work with are who you spend most of your time with day to day. So I think it's really a huge part of living a good life.

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:36:19):

Exactly.

 

Mel Robbins (01:36:21):

So I love to always end by having you speak directly to the person who's listening. So if you could just talk to the person listening about all the things that you've learned about living a good life, what would you want them to know?

 

Dr. Robert Waldinger (01:36:42):

I would say invest in the people who you care about and invest in the things that you care about. And if you keep your eye on those things, those are the most likely to make you feel like your life is good. And then when you're in doubt about what to do, make kindness your default setting. So if you're in doubt, should I do this or should I do that? Think to yourself, well, what would be the kinder thing to do? And do that.

 

Mel Robbins (01:37:16):

Dr. Robert Waldinger, thank you so much for being here with us. I have been so looking forward to this. You did not disappoint. I have a million people I want to text now, and I also am really excited about the curiosity piece

 

(01:37:34):

And understanding that everybody around me has changed so much and leaning into it and noticing it is going to help me live a good life. And to you, I want to thank you for spending time with us today. And in case nobody else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you. I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to take everything that you learned today. And I hope you do. I hope you take what you learned and you put it into action in your day-to-day life. Because if you do, you will look back when your life is near its end and you will be able to say, I lived a good life. Alrighty, I'll talk to you in a few days and to you on YouTube. I just wanted to take a minute and say thank you.

 

(01:38:21):

Thank you for being a part of my life. Thank you for watching and subscribing to this channel. Thank you for sharing these episodes with the people that you love. And this one in particular, it is so important. It is so profound. I mean, this is what life is about after all. And so thank you for taking the time to send this link to people that you care about. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to take everything that you learned today and to use it to create good relationships and to live a good life. And one thing that is going to help you put this into action is this next video, which is all about happiness. And you're going to love it because I'm going to walk you through an exercise that is going to help you get deeply personal about what happiness really means to you.